Tacoma Japanese Language School Oral History Collection

Lisa:Do we need more sound tests, or?

Camera man:I think we’re all set.

Mary:Okay.

Well this is an interview with Mr. Perry Yoshiako, Yoshiaki Yano. He’s 73, he’s from Naperville, Illinois. We are in Chicago, Illinois, right now. It’s March 10th, 2005. I’m Mary Hanneman, from University of Washington, Tacoma.

Lisa:And I’m Lisa Hoffman, also from the University of Washington, Tacoma.

So thank you very much for joining us today, and we just want to start out with, um, a few questions about your background, so if you could tell us when and where you were born, and if you have any siblings.

Perry:Yeah, I was born in June, on June 2nd, 1931, I think Tacoma General Hospital. And I have, I’ve a sister five years older than me. Her name is Masako Mae, and Matsumori now. And she lives near Salt Lake City, with her, with her husband.

Lisa:Great. And-. Oh, I’m sorry.

Perry:No, go ahead.

Lisa:Um, it, it’s just the two of you?

Perry:Yes.

Lisa:You and your sister? And do you know when your parents came to the United States? And if they, where did they go first?

Perry:I think, I think my, my father came in 1906, and I guess he came Seattle first. Then he, uh, went back and he got married and brought my, uh, my mother over – 1924. And I think he just, that was the, about the last of the, I think [cracking noise] in ’24, that was the last, she wouldn’t have been able to come after that. Because of the, there was, I guess there was a law passed. And in 1906, I think, after that there was, they allowed family members to come, but not immigrants. So in both cases, it was the last year for them to get over here.

Mary:So your father came in 1906.

Perry:I believe so, yes.

Mary:And then married in 1924, about. So-.

Perry:Yeah, I guess.

Mary:Sounds like he was maybe old, quite a bit older than your mother? Or-?

Perry:He, yeah, actually he was. He was about thirteen years older.

Mary:Uh-huh.

Lisa:How, how did they meet? Was that an arranged marriage?

Perry:Yes. Yeah, I don’t know too-- I remember he had a very good friend that went to the same scho-, high school that he did in Japan, and I guess this fellow was, was pretty mature, or more maybe more so than my dad. So I remember, so my, my grandfather asked him to look out for my dad, and so they were pretty close. And then – so when this fellow ca-, went back to Japan, he got married, and he married, actually married my mother’s sister. And then he sort of thought it was a good idea for my dad to come back and marry his sister, I mean her, I guess you know–

Mary, Lisa:His wife’s sister.

Perry:Right. So that’s what happened.

Lisa:So they were all from the same area in Japan?

Perry:Yes.

Lisa:Where was that?

Perry:It was a ci-, it was a small city in Ma-, called Marugame, in Shikoku. It was a prefecture – Kagawaken. So, we were back there once, it was a pretty nice town. We never, we met, we didn’t meet too many of the relatives, but there’s not, apparently there’s not too many left.

Mary:When did you go back?

Perry:Oh, I, gee, it was maybe about ten years ago.

Lisa, Mary:Oh.

Perry:We went back as a, the four of us were able to go back.

Mary:Oh, how neat.

Lisa:Oh, wow.

Perry:To go back to our, or their hometown. Do a little sight-seeing.

Lisa:Fantastic.

Mary:What did your father do in Tacoma?

Perry:He was a, at one time he was a-. Well he, I think he worked a lot as a farmer, you know, working for other farm-, for a farmer. And then he went, he was a, he owned a, a pool hall at one time, with a friend. And then after he got married, he didn’t, he thought he should do something more, more respectable, I guess, so--. But so he, he used to go and, on a truck and sell vegetables, uh, fruits and vegetables. And he did that for a while. And then, when I was around four or five, he bought a, well he rented a grocery store, and they, that’s uh, so he did that, he did that for about four or five years, before-. Then the war started.

Mary:Uh-huh. Do you remember the name of the grocery store?

Perry:Probably just Yao’s Grocery.

Mary:And where did your family live?

Perry:I think it was a corner of 19th and K – that was our last address. And then before that we lived, it was on an alley, I think it was below, between Fawcett and Market Street, on s-, on 17th. 17th or fif-, 17th or 15th, I’m not sure.

Lisa:Do you know how long your father stayed in Seattle when he first came?

Perry:No, he, he was, he moved. Apparently he moved around quite a bit. I remember him talking about being in C-, around San Francisco-.

Lisa:Oh.

Perry:And then I’m not sure if that, I guess he was still farming, but-.

Lisa:So-.

Perry:Then he went, but most of the time I think he spent in, around Tacoma or Seattle, Puyallup, along the Puyallup. There’s a place called Fife near Tacoma, and there, I guess it’s a lot, used to be a lot of farms there. And he used to work on those farms. But I’m not sure, you know, how long he spent in each location.

Lisa:So why do you think he ended up going back to Tacoma? Were there friends there? Other connections? What, what, was there anything in particular that drew him?

Perry:No, I, I really, I really, I really couldn’t say what the-. I know there was a, probably a lot better, I mean more, bigger community of Japanese there, so-. But other than that, I don’t know.

Mary:Did your mother work outside the home?

Perry:No, she never – oh later, after, after the war she did, she had, she did work, but not, not, well, maybe, uh, no, on a farm. My dad was working as a, on a chicken farm, and then my, my, my mother would do some, I think grading the chick-, of the eggs. So. But bef-, but when we were growing up she never worked at all, except maybe she worked in the grocery store.

Mary:So in your father’s grocery store.

Perry:Pardon me?

Mary:In your father’s grocery store.

Perry:Yes.

Lisa:Did your parents speak English?

Perry:Uh, well, just enough to, you know, run a grocery store. It was in a Caucasian neighborhood, so.

Mary:Do you know where it was?

Perry:19th and K.

Lisa:So that was the grocery, okay. And so what language would you speak at home with your parents?

Perry:Japanese.

Lisa:And how about when you spoke with your sister, or your friends, what would you speak?

Perry:Probably English.

Mary:Do you remember going to school, and did you know English when you entered first grade?

Perry:Uh, I would think so. Yeah, I think so…yeah I don’t remember my, too much of my friends when I was that young, you know, before, before grade school. Huh. Yeah, I, yeah, I, well we, I don’t know if I spoke, I guess most of my close friends were Niseis, too. But I really don’t remember if we spoke English or Jap-. I, I think we spoke English.

Lisa:And which elementary school did you go to?

Perry:I went, I think I went to Central for one year, and then I went to Stanley for four or five years.

Lisa:And do you remember why you transferred, you switched schools?

Perry:Oh, because, because we moved. We moved to 19th and K, and that was, that was closer, I, yeah, that was closer.

Mary:Were there more Nisei students at Central than at Stanley?

Perry:Yes. Yeah w-, I think we were, I was, I was the only Japanese at Stanley, as far as I know. I was the only one.

Mary:Did you feel, do you have any memories about that? Do you feel singled out at all, or-?

Perry:No I, I really, I didn’t. I didn’t have that feeling at all. No, I was, I don’t remember, I don’t have any real strong impressions of what, why I, all that time, it’s strange, but I don’t remember too much of it happening, or any incidents or… But I think I was pretty, I was pretty happy at, you know, it wasn’t a, it was a good experience. And there was no, no bad feelings or any, any, any prejudice that I, you know I didn’t even, well I didn’t even think about those things, you know, when I was growing up. So-.

Lisa:Do you think those kinds of things affected your parents? Do you remember them talking about any, um, experiences of discrimination or prejudice in their work or their lives?

Perry:No, I don’t think, um, I don’t think that, well they didn’t… Well, I was pretty young, you know, I was from, it was around, through six to ten years of age. So, they didn’t discuss those issues with me. But I, I don’t think, as far as I know, it was a very happy time. I remember their relatives in Japan would encourage them to come back to Japa-, go back to Japan, ‘cause they, they felt it was going to be a, they, I guess they felt that war was coming. But my parents decided, well, they didn’t listen to them, you know, so that probably, they probably felt good about staying in, in the United States. So it must have been a good time for them, too. Relatively speaking. I know hims-, I know my dad said it was, it was a lot easier to, it was easier to make a living in Ja-, in the United States. You know, from his, what he, what he knew was the, was a lot harder to make a living in Japan. So, you know, he probably thought that if he went back, it would be very difficult for him, or for all of us.

Lisa:Did your parents want you to go to the Japanese language school and-?

Perry:Mm-hmm.

Lisa:So do you remember when you started going, and was your sister also there?

Perry:Yes, we both went. I star-, I guess I started around first grade. Yeah, we were, I guess I was, we were living in – my dad would drive me to school af-, after English school. Although it would be, it wasn’t, it was like, it was 19th Street, so it wasn’t that f-, uh, K Street, so it wasn’t too far, maybe six blocks, or so. So, um, yeah, that’s… Yeah, they encouraged me to go.

Lisa:Did you – some of the students attended Mrs. Schneider’s English class before they went into public schools. And then after they started public schools, they went to Japanese language school in the afternoons. Do you remember if you ever attended Mrs. Schneider’s classes?

Perry:No, I remember going to, there was a Ms. Rye, or, I’m not sure. She had a Christian school of some kind, over maybe, couple of blocks over, to, towards maybe 12th Street, or something like that. I went, I did go, I remember going there.

Lisa:At, when was that? Was that-?

Perry:Umm, I think it was bef-, I think it was before I started grade school. And I, I remember…the only – yeah, my memory – I don’t…let’s see, I don’t. The only thing I remember is I had a good friend. He was, he went with me, and then we, he started off with me, but…he, he used a word that she didn’t like, and, uh, and scolded him, and then he left. He didn’t, he never came back after that. That’s the only thing I remember about the school.

Lisa:Were your playmates, when you were in grade school, were they mostly other Japanese children, or were they Caucasian children from school?

Perry:I, uh, playmates, I guess, in, yeah, before we moved they were Japanese, and then about, I had some, when I was going to Japanese school I had good, pretty close friends. But I had Caucasian friends around the neighborhood at 19th and K. That’s, I guess on weekends, that’s who I, you know, I didn’t go down to the Japanese areas. I stayed around our, our store and played, played with the friends there.

Lisa:Did, did you help out in the store? Did your father expect you to help out?

Perry:No, my, my sister did. She helped. But I, I don’t think he was very strict, you know, about the hours, or…so… And I never, I didn’t help much, or hardly at all.

Lisa:How about, oh sorry.

Perry:But I did hang out, I remember I used to listen to the radio in the back of the store. But that’s about… And I don’t think I ever waited on anybody.

Lisa:You were the little boy.

Perry:Yeah.

Mary:And you said that your father would take you, and your sister as well, down to the school?

Perry:No, he used to just take me. I don’t know how my sister got there. I don’t know what, how that worked out.

Mary:So she was older.

Perry:Yes, five years older, she is, so...

Mary:Would he come pick you up as well?

Perry:I, I don’t think so. I, I think I walked back.

Lisa:Where was your sister in school, then?

Perry:She was going, she was in, she was in junior high and, and then she was in first grade of high school, Lincoln.

Lisa:She was at Lincoln. And do you remember which junior high it would have been?

Perry:I think it was McCarver, but I’m not sure.

Lisa:Yeah.

Mary:But she also went to the language school throughout her-.

Perry:Yes. Yeah, but, I don’t recall seeing her. I don’t re-, have any memory of seeing her at the school. Of all of the time that we… I don’t, actually I don’t recall too much about the school.

Mary:Do, do, oh go ahead.

Perry:I just remember a couple of the teachers that I had, just, you know briefly, what they looked like. And then, and then I remember one of the principal’s daughters, I think, taught at the school. And she, she, I was in, in her class for one year. Four, four, there were, and then four, four of us became pretty good friends. And I remember she, we went on a, I think she took us on an outing to Point Defiance, or there used to be a fort, Fort Defiance? I don’t know.

Mary:Fort Steilacoom, maybe. Fort Steilacoom, which was located out at Point Defiance Park.

Perry:Okay. There was a, a log, big log, uh-.

Mary:Kind of a stockade?

Perry:Stockade.

I used to have a picture of the four of us that she took, but somehow, I don’t know where it went to, but-.

Lisa:Do you remember the other four? Their names? That were your close friends.

Perry:Yeah. One, this was Urishibata-.

Lisa:Kunio?

Perry:No, his son, I mean his bro-, younger brother. I forget, To-, Toshir-, Tosh-.

Mary:I think that’s.

Lisa:Yeah.

Perry:I think he’s in Richmond. And then there was Manabu, and I, well I forget his last name. And there was Henry Hashimoto, from, actually from Sea-, now he’s in Seattle. And there was another fellow, I don’t, now I forget, I forget his name now. Yeah, I forget his name totally. So…

Lisa:And, you, how did you meet them? Was that just through the school?

Perry:I think it was through the school. I mean, you know, we had the same teacher. And I don’t know what happened. The next year, we all got split up. I mean, well maybe I was split off from them somehow. And we had a new, different teacher. And I, and I know – I remember at the beginning of the year I was pretty unhappy. But, you know, I couldn’t verbalize why, and I remember, remember just jumping when we got to school, you know, I just before I got to school, I just jumped out of the car and then walked back home.

Lisa:Oh.

Perry:My dad was kind of ups-, you know he wanted to know what was going on, just went on to talk, you know, I don’t know who we talked to, but, but I remember I, you know, just how unhappy I was at the beginning of the next year.

Lisa:Was your dad able to figure it out? Did the teachers understand what had happened?

Perry:I, I don’t think so, I don’t-.

Lisa:So do you have memories of Mr. and Mrs. Yamasaki? Principal and his wife who was also a teacher?

Perry:I just have a, a picture of what they looked like. He was a – by that, by that time he was, he’s a lot older than he looks in this photo here, and his wife, you know, of course is older too. She was, by that time she was pretty stout, and he, he was a, he was a pretty stern-looking guy. You know he, to me he looked very imposing, you know, pretty tall and pretty scary guy [laughter]. I think he was very strict. But he never, I never saw him… I don’t think I remember him hollering at anybody, yelling at anybody, or anything like that. Or his wife, either. And his daughters are very, very, very nice. As far as I know. No, I had never heard any bad words said about them.

Lisa:Who else did you have as teachers, do you remember them?

Perry:I just, I remember they, the year after I had, the year that I was separated from my friends. And uh, he was, he had, he was pretty short and he had sort of a darker complexion, and he wore glasses, I believe. I think he was very sh-, he must have been very short, because I remember him as being, you know, not much taller than I was. So, but I don’t, I forget his name. I don’t remember his name.

Mary:But you said that you felt that the principal was strict and he was kind of scary.

Perry:Right.

Mary:Did you feel that way about any of the other teachers?

Perry:Mmm, no. I, I don’t, actually, I don’t remember any other teachers.

Lisa:You remember a lot, I have to tell you [laughter]. You’ve got a great memory.

What kinds of things did you learn there, what kinds of lessons did you have? Any…:

Perry:I know there was a lot, the language, but that was the main thing I remember, and I don’t remember ethics, or conduct, or anything like that. Although it was probably taught, but it didn’t, maybe it didn’t reach me, I don’t know.

Mary:Do you remember any of the activities at school?

Perry:I think there was a athletic day, but I don’t, I don’t, I don’t even remember where it was that, well, we had that. So, I remember they had, they had a, the only thing I remember, they used to have rings that you swing by in the back. And I remember, I remember because I couldn’t, I couldn’t navigate them. That always bothered me, why didn’t I learn how to do that? It was a great opportunity.

Lisa:Some of the children played baseball there in the backyard of the school. Did you play baseball ever?

Perry:I don’t think so.

Lisa:Well you would have gone there through fifth grade, I think you said.

Perry:Yeah, about fifth grade.

Lisa:So it’s a, yeah (unintelligible mumbling).

Mary:Did you remember any activities from the public school?

Perry:No, we did – extracurricular activities?

Lisa, Mary:Mm-hmm.

Perry:No, no. I, I liked to play sports, [sporadic sneezing in the background begins] but I didn’t, they used to play soccer a lot, because they had a big yard, a lot of room at Stanley school, so... But I wasn’t very good at soccer, so… But that’s all I remember of the sports that we played at Stanley.

Lisa:You said that at Stanley you think you were probably the only Japanese-American-.

Perry:Right.

Lisa:In your class at least. So would you go over to your Caucasian friends’ homes and would they come to your home?

Perry:No, we didn’t, I don’t think, they all, I don’t, very rarely did that happen. So, no, I didn’t…I didn’t do that.

Lisa:So when you think about your friends growing up, do you think they were probably mostly in the Japanese community, then? Or are they, were they evenly spread out?

Perry:Well, I, I think I, on the weekends I would hang out with the kids in my neighborhood, who were, who were Caucasian, and I, I didn’t, I didn’t go down towards, towards the center of Tacoma. So-.

Lisa:How about your parents, who would they socialize with?

Perry:We, we used to go from – I remember memories of going to Steilacoom Beach, which is a Japanese beach. I guess that’s the name of the town, Steilacoom – and we, so that when, I guess whenever we took any time off, whenever they took any time off, that’s where we would go, during summer. So yeah, I have, have a, must have gone out there quite a bit, ‘cause I remember quite a lot of the activities that we did have out there. I remember Fourth of July. I remember we used to go out and we’d have, we stayed pretty late and there would be firecrackers, you know, Roman Candles, and we’d there, we’d be there-. I remember, I think we spent – it was somebody out there that had a, a home, maybe, not a home, but he would rent out one or two rooms – it was built out on the water on pilings. I think his name, I remember his name as, I think it was Higuchi. I remember staying there. That was a… I must have enjoyed that a lot.

Lisa:Uh-huh.

Mary:When you say it was a Japanese beach, did, does that mean that Japanese didn’t go to other beaches, or that just no Caucasians came to that, to Steilacoom Beach, or-?

Perry:Yeah, there, yeah there were no Caucasians, it was a very, it wasn’t a, I don’t think it was a very big beach. But there were no Caucasians, and that’s, I don’t know why – well, and it wasn’t, let’s see… Yeah, I never, we never used to think about race very mu-, I mean, maybe I was too young. But after the war started then, you know, of course it was a lot more on my mind, I was older, so-.

Mary:You didn’t think about it at the time, but when you look back, do you have any kind of reflections about it?

Perry:About my relations with, uh…?

Lisa:Mmhmm.

Perry:I think that, I think that growing up I didn’t think anything about it, I just – you know, I always thought of myself as Japanese because I was in, because I had Japa-, there was a Japanese community, and I used to go to church and you know, go to Japanese school, and... But, you know, I felt very comfortable going to a all-Caucasian school, you know, I don’t think it ever bothered me, and even though apparently I didn’t have any, I didn’t make any really close school-mates. But [sirens begin in background] I guess uh, I guess, you know, maybe I was too carefree, not worrying about, thinking about things like that [sirens getting louder and honking].

Lisa:Which church did you go to [sirens continue]?

Perry:The, there was a Methodist Church on, I think it was on 19th Street, I’m not sure, down Fawcett Avenue, I believe [sirens continue].

Lisa:What kind of a role did the church play in your life, with your family? Did you go there often?

Perry:Yeah, I used to go to the, mainly to the, they had a [door slamming] Sunday school, and I, my mother would encourage me to go. But I went, I think I always went alone [sirens fading], I’m not sure how I got there even, but she, although she didn’t go herself there [sirens gone].

Lisa:Your mother.

Perry:Yeah. Umm, I, I don’t know, she might have not, she was not [sirens resume], her friends did not, she didn’t have friends in the church, [sirens quiet] Her friends were mostly her fath-, her husband’s frien-, my dad’s friends. And she may not have gotten along with the oth-, with some of the others. But she liked to, she liked to read the Bible, and encourage me to go, so-. And I, I remember a lot of the, I remember going, having these Sunday school lessons in different parts of the church. But I’d – oh, and they used to have mov-, I think they used to have movies in the basement. Although this lady said today that “No, you didn’t, there were no [laughter] movies there” [truck backing up].

Lisa:We’ve heard about some movies though, that the youth group would hold them, at the Methodist Church, I believe, in some of the other interviews. And you said that your mom’s friends were mostly your dad’s friends-.

Perry:Yeah, I guess she didn’t have, she didn’t, I don’t remember if she had a, any close friends.

Lisa:How-- I’m sorry.

Perry:The one time that, uh, my father criticized my mother is he was complaining that she didn’t like his friends and so he was saying that he didn’t have too many friends because of his, because she didn’t like his friends. But she didn’t have too many friends of, I don’t remember her having any close friends.

Lisa:How did your dad meet his friends, were they business associates, or through the language schoo-, other parents, or the church?

Perry:I, I think mainly they were friends that he made when he, before he, before he got married, but I’m not sure.

Mary:At the pool hall, maybe that’s why your mother didn’t like them. [general laughter]

Perry:That’s…probably true. [laughter]

Lisa:So you said that, that the lessons about the ethics and conduct, you don’t really remember them at the language school. How about from your parents, were those-?

Perry:No, she just told me, you know, go to, go to Sunday school. And, she didn’t try to enforce any rules. My dad was not, was very easygoing, my mother was, although she believed in the Bible and wanted, encouraged me to go to, as much as she could, to, though she never went, she didn’t go herself. So I used to go, that’s about it.

Lisa:Did you think about that as a child, and wonder, “I have to go, why my mom’s not going?”

Perry:No, I, I got, I didn’t. Maybe I should have. [laughter] But...

Mary:What about your relationship with your sister, she was quite a bit older than you.

Perry:Yeah. We, we weren’t very close. And she, I think she, she was not too happy that she was expected to look out for the younger, look out for me. And maybe my mother, you know, tried to have her do that. And she, she might have resented that. But she, she wanted to… She didn’t want a little brother hanging around all the time. I got that impression. I, I didn’t, so I didn’t see much of her growing up.

Mary:Do you think your parents had different expectations of her and of you?

Perry:Yeah, my parents, my moth-, my, my, my dad was very easygoing, he didn’t, you know he was pretty carefree, I think, at heart, although he was, you know, he was always at home, you know, he wasn’t, he didn’t go out with other men, other friends. But he didn’t spend too much time lecturing us, or advising us, or uh... And my mother usually was the one that, you know once she, she mostly stressed just being good, and then, you know, reading the Bi-, following the Bible, and then... She used to say that, you know, just, just, just be a good person, but she didn’t, you know, she didn’t break it down much further than that, you know, exactly how to be good, just be good. So that’s what I remember. I know she did a lot of that.

Lisa:So how did you, [truck backing up] if she didn’t break it down, how did you take that? What, what did it mean to you to be a good person? To be good?

Perry:I remember the Ten Commandments made a big impression on me. [beeping ends] I tried to follow that a long time. I mean, for a long time. But then I remember, well I guess I don’t remember too many, and I know the Sunday school lessons, they used to have little four-page pamphlets, and little Bible stories. So I think that made a, they made a, they made a big impression on me.

So yeah, I think, you know, I didn’t understand the Christianity, but I think I tried to follow the… The Ten Commandments made a big, pretty deep, must have made a pretty deep impression on me. So, even though, you know, I never analyzed it very, very much. But just und-, I tried to follow it, just took it literally, you know, for a long time. And then my moth-, my mother always telling me “Be good,” don’t, you know. But she wasn’t, you know, like I said, very specific.

Lisa:So one thing we’re trying to understand in this project is what role the language school played in the community and in people’s lives. And Tacoma’s school is unique because it’s a non-denominational school, whereas a lot of the other language schools on the West Coast were started by either the Methodist Church or the Buddhist Church. So if you think back on your life and your experience, especially in relation to your time at Sunday School, another school-type atmosphere or institution, do you think that it mattered that the language school wasn’t, non-denominational? Did it play a big role in the community or, and in your home life?

Perry:I think it just subcon-, not something I thought about consciously, but you know, it just made me… It just instilled in me that, that I was a Japanese person, and that, you know that the people around, the people I saw in school, these, these are the people that I’m like, and that are like me. And that’s, that’s my group. That, that’s the main thing, and now, um, that’s – but, be as far as my moral character, you know I, I don’t, I’m not conscious of it being, uh, playing a very big part of my, my life. But I think today, you know, I’m much more comfortable with being around Japanese, and even though I live in a very white community, and, you know, I feel, I feel, I, I come to, [scratching his nose] I’ve just, just lately starting coming to Japanese-American church in Chicago. And I feel very, much more comfortable there, so... Then I think that maybe the, maybe the school, you know, put that, started it all, and so...

Mary:You said earlier, that when talking about this sort of thing, that you didn’t really have any thoughts or feelings about racism or prejudice when you were younger – but then after the war or maybe when you were older, did you have any?

Perry:Yeah, I think, you know, when I was growing up, I would hear about Japanese atrocities and then, you know, then I would, that gave me, so I think it gave me guilt, guilt feelings, you know, that they would do, that things like that were going on that they were doing. And yeah, I would, I would feel ashamed, you know, I would feel, you know, I would feel sort of maybe inferior, because they were doing such things. That was around when I was around, maybe around eleven or twelve, not, no maybe af-, right after that. And then being, being put in camps, I think it really, subconsciously, it, I felt that, you know I felt sort of, I felt, I think I felt maybe inferior, because of the, you know, being put away for being Japanese.

And it took a while for, I’m not sure if that is the only reason, but I think it affected me subconsciously, or maybe even consciously. That, I think, yeah, I think that I really did, psychologically I was hurt by the, by the war and being put away.

Mary:It seems like you would not have been so young that it wouldn’t have mattered, but you weren’t so old at that time that you would have had a strong identity and strong personality, so maybe you were a particularly vulnerable age, you know, when your family was sent to the camps.

Perry:Yeah, you know, I couldn’t verbalize what I, what I was feeling, or maybe I couldn’t even understand what was going on. But I was feeling something and, you know, I couldn’t, something I couldn’t even talk about, for a lot, so it just was inside, maybe for a long time. And gradually, I began to think about it, and work it out, so, you know, I can, at least I can talk, could verbalize a little bit more, and so.

Lisa:Where were you when Pearl Harbor happened?

Perry:Pardon me?

Lisa:Where were you when Pearl Harbor happened?

Perry:Okay, yeah, I was in a movie, and we were with a couple, a couple of friends, and we came out and we were walking home, and then, you know, they had, they were shouting a headline on a newspaper about the war, just Pearl Harbor, so-. It was a big shock.

Lisa:And what did you do, then?

Perry:I, I don’t, I don’t remember [truck backing up]. Yeah, that was, yeah it was a very sa-, a really shocking day. But I didn’t, you know, I didn’t, I guess I didn’t know what was going to happen and I really didn’t know what to make of it all. And we didn’t, we never really sat down and discussed what it all meant.

Mary:Do you remember your parents’ reaction at all?

Perry:No I don’t remember.

Mary:Or your sister?

Perry:No.

Lisa:Did anything happen in school? Were there any announcements, things like that?

Perry:No, I, I meant, I didn’t go to school for a couple of days after that, and then, and I understand the principal had a meeting and with the whole student body, and he just said, you know, that, words to the effect that, you know, they would, that I was not to be treated poorly, and I had nothing to do with what happened. That’s what I understand, I don’t know what exactly what happened. So never, so there were no incidents at school that I remember. So I was… Yeah, I don’t, I don’t remember too much about what was going on.

Lisa:[Camera jogs around] Why didn’t you go to school for a few days? Were, were your parents afraid? Or were you afraid?

Perry:I, I don’t know, I don’t remember why, exactly why I didn’t go.

Lisa:Did your sister also stay home, or do you remember if she went to school?

Perry:I, I, I think she stayed home, but I’m not sure. I don’t know exactly, I don’t remember what exactly what happened.

Lisa:How about when the relocation order came, do you remember what happened in your family and packing things up? Where you went?

Perry:Yeah, it, I don’t remember, I remember we just had to start get-, getting rid of things and our, the grocery store, uh, and we had to get, my dad had to sell everything, get rid of everything. I remember, uh, though maybe towards the end, towards, one of the last days before closing the store, he had to, I guess he had like a party, where he, where the peop-, where he gave away a lot of the food.

And so, I know how, I was pretty… Actually I think I… I remember I was, I cried during that party, and I remember my mother, my parents being concerned because I was crying. I don’t know exactly why I was crying, but, but I remember that. But I remember it happened. Yeah, I don’t have too many memories of the last year that we were there.

I guess there were, you know, a couple of, maybe there was one guy I remember in the neighborhood that was, he would call us names, he would call me a name, called me a name a couple of times. But other than that… Oh, and then I, I would, I heard, overheard someone telling peop-, some people talking, strangers talking, you know, mentioning about, I remember about “Japs,” and so, but you know they, it wasn’t directed towards me. They were just talk, uh talking. I would, I would overhear them. But there were no, you know, I wasn’t beat up or things thrown at me, or anything like that.

Lisa:Are there stories? Did you hear of that happening to other people?

Perry:Yeah, later on, you know, I met some, well they, especially in class there was a couple of young brothers whose father was sho-, in, was sh-, they were from Stockton, California. And they were sh-, his, their father was killed on the day when Pearl Harbor happened. So…

Lisa:You met them in camp.

Perry:Yes.

Lisa:Wow.

Perry:But not, I’d never heard anything happen in, happening in Tacoma.

Lisa:So you were quite young still, when you must have heard those kinds of stories in camp.

Perry:Yeah, I was around ten when I, in fort-, in fort-, well I guess in ’42 I must have been eleven. So, about the sixth, the sixth grade.

Lisa:Where did you go, where did your family go?

Perry:We went to Pinedale, California, near, I think it’s near Fres-, Fresno. Then, then after a couple months we went up to Tule Lake, and then I stayed there ‘til November of ’45. And then my dad went to, and our family went to New Jersey.

Mary:After the, after release, then, your family went to New Jersey.

Perry:Yeah, yeah, November, ’45.

Mary:And why New Jersey?

Perry:Pardon me?

Mary:Why New Jersey?

Perry:Umm, they didn’t want, they thought there would be, there would be too much prejudice in the West Coa-, Coast, so they wanted to go east.

Mary:Mm-hmm.

Perry:And I think there were relocation people, you know, that had, that knew of places where they could go and find, and had jobs available. So…

Mary:What kind of job did your father find then?

Perry:He deci-, he looked for, well he ended up chicken, doing chicken farming.

Lisa:And we’ve heard of several people doing this-.

Mary:In New Jersey.

Lisa:Yeah.

Perry:Uh-huh. Central Jersey.

Lisa:Yeah.

Perry:They, yeah it was, I guess they had chicken farms to supply New York Ci- well New York and I guess Philadelphia was right in between. So, and the, there was a lot of farmland there. [camera bumped] You know, it wasn’t, there were no big cities at all. And I guess they had started, the farms that were started during World War II, and there were a lot of Jewish farms, actually. And they were, they were looking for help, so...

A lot of Japanese went down further south in Seabrook, New Jersey. There was a, but we never, I don’t know why they didn’t choose to go over there. I would think that, you know, he knew, my dad knew more about vegetable farming than working on a chicken farm. I don’t know why they decided not to do that. And I never asked them. But he didn’t, he didn’t work too long, I think maybe about five years. He was, he was around sixty, I think, when we moved to New Jersey.

And then my, my sister went to nursing school, and then she became, she was a nurse, and then she got married, and they had a child. And my dad, no he, I didn’t, he thought that he didn’t, he couldn’t work mu- I guess he was around sixty-five, so he, he was getting his social security, and they went to live with my sister and her family. And let’s see, I was, at that time I was in the, I was in the service, I just started. It was the Korean War going on, so, in 1950 I was in the Air Force, and they had gone to live, my parents had gone to live with my sister, so… Well, they coul-, they couldn’t, there was friction with my brother-in-law and my mother especially, so they – they went back, they went to work as a, I guess, I think he worked for a ri-, a rich couple, well pretty rich couple in, outside of Philadelphia. They were getting room and board, and so...

And then when I, when I got out of the service I lived with my parents. We went into the country, uh, near Lakewood, New Jersey. But we star-, well we, they started out right after the war. And then they ended up in, let’s see… I moved out after I got mar-, I got married and then moved to Illinois, and then my parents moved back with my, with my sister and her husband, and I guess they got along better than they did the first time, so... And my parents, that’s, uh, they spent the last years of their lives with my pa-, with my sister and her husband.

Mary:So you finished high school in New Jersey?

Perry:Mm-hmm.

Mary:And then when, when did you enlist in the Air Force?

Perry:Umm, in July, about one year after, after I graduated. I was working, when I was in, when I was in high school, I got a job, I think one summer, working in a hotel as a, making salads. And so then I think the summer after I graduate, graduated… Oh, I was encouraged to go to college, but I just didn’t, I just didn’t think of myself as a college person. So I just took, uh… So somehow I got in touch with the person that I worked for the previous summer and went to work as a, doing the same job, making salads. At, at a resort in upst-, in, near New York City. And then, and then that, in that fall I, I got another job, the same kind of a job, maybe it was a bus boy, in, near Philadelphia.

And then, then I, then I got a job in Philadelphia doing, as a salad man. And then, then I went, then in ’51 I went into the service. And then, let’s see, then after four years I, uh, yeah let’s see, I was working as a technician, electronic technician, and then I did, I did that for about maybe two years, two or two years, I guess, and I decided to go back to college.

Lisa:That was after those, after the service you were the technician? You did that?

Perry:Yes.

Lisa:Okay.

Perry:Maybe two to four years, I’m, I’m not, let’s see, how did that work out? Yeah, I think it was maybe four years as a technician. Then I went back to school, college, not back, but I went to college. Yeah, I went and got a degree in, in math, actually. And then I went to work for, there was AT&T at that time, then I was a engineer for about thirty-four years.

Lisa:Wow.

Perry:So. Then I’ve been retired since ’95.

Lisa:What was it like, going to high school in New Jersey, after coming out of the internment camp?

Perry:And I was, yeah, we, we were, I was the only, well there was one other Japanese-American in the school. And it was a small town, about 12,000. Mostly, well they were all Caucasians except it was a resort town for Jewish people that would come there, so there was a lot of Jewish hotels and maybe all the smart kids in high school were Jewish. And so, in the, they had the college preparatory school, uh, classes, and so I, I was, so all my classmates were Jewish. But, you know, they don’t, I didn’t associate, my friends were not Jewish. They were… I never saw my friends in school, you know. The guys that I hang out with, hung out with. I, oh I used to go to YMCA a lot, and there were no, there were no Jews there, so... So, I got, and I got pretty good grades, and but, so I was encouraged to go to high sch-, uh college, but I never did that. I think I, you know, so high school was a good experience. It was a good sch-, pretty good school, so I got a pretty good education. And a lot, a lot of kids that wanted to go college, you know, they, they went on and went to good schools. But most of them went to the state school, in New Jersey, Rut-, Rutgers, which is a, I think had a pretty good reputation. But I, I never, no the Jewish stu-, all the, they all hang out together and I never, I never did join their, join them. So my friends, my friends were, they never, they never went on to college. Why, actually, at the time they didn’t go on to college, but so… I was sort of, you know, I didn’t really, I wasn’t that too close with the guys I went around with.

Lisa:And how about that going into the service. I mean it, given your experiences and your life, and having been put into the camps, did you have any…?

Perry:No, I didn’t feel any bad, you know, I didn’t, uh… It was just something I had to deal with, so, I just went. I never resented it. And my parents never spoke badly about it.

Mary:By that time, the, the services had been integrated for a few years.

Perry:Mm-hmm, oh yeah. It was, there was no, I had, yeah, there was no bad experience in service, that I knew of, that I knew of, so...

Mary:Do you know if your parents ever considered returning to Tacoma? After being released from the camps?

Perry:No, they didn’t. They never talked about going, they were happy in New Jersey.

Mary:Uh-huh. I mean, so when, when it became clear that the camps were going to be closed down and people were going to be able to go, just leave, they never, to your knowledge, discussed returning to Tacoma.

Perry:No, they just, they just said that there was, they felt there was too much prejudice and they want, it might be dangerous going back there, and there was… I don’t know, it was probably very painful for them, you know, to go back there, start all over again, and you know, new, old familiar surroundings.

Lisa:Where did you meet your wife?

Perry:Actually, I met her through my, my cousin, he knew my, he well knew… Well she, she used to take lessons, uh, sewing lessons, here from my cousin, who lived, and so that’s how I met her. He knew, uh, he knew I was looking for a wife, so.

Lisa:Was that in New Jersey? Was she also?

Perry:No, she was, this was in, he was in Ky-, uh Japan.

Lisa:Oh, okay.

Perry:In Kyoto, as a matter of fact, big, a big city, pretty big city.

Lisa:Yeah.

Mary:So your wife is from Japan.

Perry:Yes.

Lisa:And did you go to Japan to meet her, or did she come here?

Perry:No, no I went there. I had to, I met, I met her, the whole family was, I met, I came over and visited my, my cousin, and then one day I went to a hotel, and I met her family and my, my cousin was with me, my cousin and his wife and so... Then that, they looked at me and they looked me over, and said “Okay” [laughter]. And boy, there was, well you know, I was ready for marriage. So, I had, I, they went… Now, we lived in the count-, in New Jersey when I was living with my parents, and they had retired, and there weren’t many opportunities for me to meet any Japanese, Japanese at all, so... So, I, I think I was over thirty when I, yeah when I finished school around thirty-three, I think.

Lisa:And you have two children? Will you tell us a little about them?

Perry:Yes, my, my daughter is thirty-one and my son is twenty-nine. And, um, she went to medical school and she finished her Residency at Yale, and she’s been working in a native hospital in Anchorage for about, about nine months, I think. My son is in his, he’s an intern at Illinois Masonic Hospital, in north side of Chicago. So he, he wants to go into anesthesiology.

Lisa:Great.

Perry:And he just got married. Over the weekend [grins proudly].

Lisa:Oh, congratulations!

Mary:Wow, you’ve been busy this week.

Perry:So I’m kind of, I’m kind of in shock.

Lisa:I bet!

Perry:I’m not really over it yet.

Lisa:And is your daughter-in-law Japanese?

Perry:No, she’s Chi-, her parents are from Taiwan.

Lisa:Oh.

Perry:They, they live in St. Louis. She grew up in St. Louis, and she’s, I think she’s twenty-seven. She went to St. Louis Universi-, uh, Washington University, and so she’s been working three or four year-, uh, maybe five years in something, uh let’s see, mergers and acquisitions.

Lisa:Wow.

Perry:And yeah, so, she comes from a very large family. Her, her parents have several sib-, siblings, so...

Mary:So it was a big wedding, it sounds like.

Perry:Yes, very big.

Mary:Did, uh, were Chinese and Japanese traditions represented at the wedding at all?

Perry:They, they had, well they had two sets of cups, and one Japanese and then the other was Chinese, and they, they poured, I think it was tea, and supposedly sake, and they both sipped the drink. And then, then they served us with the Chinese tea, both, uh, both sets of parents, so... They tried, they tried to bring in the, the old customs during the ceremony.

Lisa:Did they kneel in front of you?

Perry:Yes.

Lisa:To serve you the tea?

Perry:That was the Chinese way, I think.

Lisa:Have you, um, what kinds of things, if any, have you told your children about growing up in Tacoma?

Perry:Not, not too much, but I, we did go back, you know there was a reunion several years ago, and so the four of us went back together, and I to-, tried to go back to where we grow up, grew up, but our houses were all, were gone, and both houses were gone. So, did, but at least they got to see where I grew up. And saw some of the surround- Seattle, and so they think, they enjoyed that.

Lisa:Was that the first time you’d been back to Tacoma?

Perry:No, I, I was briefly back maybe for a couple of days. You know, while I was working I got a chance to go on a field trip to Seattle. But that was the only time I was back.

Lisa:Are there any things you think you want your children to know? Reflecting back at this point in your life.

Perry:Mm-hmm.

Lisa:What kinds of things would those be, if any?

Perry:Well, I, I think… I wish that they had a, they could get an idea of what my childhood was like, you know, [siren begins in background] look and see what my or-, where I, what my origins were, and uh, maybe some of the, what could have influenced my life. Yeah, I think that. Do you think Tacoma is a blue-collar town? [siren gone] Or is it more of a, I don’t know, college town. I guess it’s going to be a college town now.

Lisa:It’s changing.

Mary:Gosh, it’s definitely not a blue-collar foundation, though. And the military has been real important there, Fort Lewis and McChord, and Camp Murray, and so that’s, has left a real strong imprint on that city, particularly since the war.

Perry:Mm-hmm.

Lisa:Yeah, there’s certainly a lot of transitions going on, and part of that is a shift in, in the population, but it’s not, at this point it’s not a major shift, I’d say, in Tacoma.

So if, just, I’m curious, because you said, you know, [leans forward and camera goes slightly out of focus] “what may have been those things that have influenced me in my life,” I mean, if you think of them, could you list a couple, and would the language school be in that list?

Perry:Yeah, I, I think the language school, you know, it just, you know, I, made me feel that I was a, a Japanese, not an Ameri-, an American. I always, I think I always thought of myself as being Japanese, and not an American, that’s all. You know, when I went to get married, you know, I didn’t think, I didn’t think I’d look for a Japanese wife, so that was a big influence. Let’s see, what else. [sits back, camera refocuses] I, I maybe, well you know friends, I feel more comfortable being with Japanese…but let’s see. Umm, you know, I think Tacoma being a blue-collar town, I think that…not a, not a…more of an intellectual community, so maybe that had an influence on me, too. So…

You know, I think I had a, sort of a, more of a egalitarian view of people, maybe subconsciously that came from the school… Nothing, no, no lessons that, you know, were verbally taught, or, I think maybe I, some of that came from the school. You know, but there’s nothing that I could pinpoint and say that, “Well that was it.” That’s when that happened, or… But it just only be over a period of time.

Lisa:Some of, some of the other people we’ve talked to have said that their, they actually have very happy memories of childhood, and that seems especially true for the children who grew up within those, kind of where the Japanese businesses tend to be, tended to be. In that kind of downtown core.

Perry:Uh-huh.

Lisa:Because it seems there lives were, as one person said, kind of insulated, in a sense, and it was all about the Japanese-American community. Do you think, do you think that could be true, and do you think because you lived a little bit outside of that core part of the town that your experiences might be different from theirs?

Perry:Yeah, I think it was, it was different. But we did get to meet other Japanese at Steilacoom Bea-, Steilacoom Beach. And that was a very, you know, I had a lot of, that was when probably when I was the happiest, you know, when I was on, playing on the beach and playing, playing in the water, and being around, and having things to, good things to eat, and staying late at night, and shooting off firecrackers, and – or fireworks. So, yeah, I have a lot of happy memories. But not so much in the downtown area. So…yeah, we never, we never got down there too much. Just during the school hours.

Lisa:So are there, are there any other memories or thoughts about the language school or growing up in Tacoma that you’d like to share?

Perry:Yeah, I, it was a very happy time, you know. Well, no, I guess kids are mostly happy anyway, growing up. They have happy childhoods a lot. So my childhood was not very different from anybody else. Just, it was pretty, pretty happy, no bad… Until the war started, you know, there was nothing. No bad memories.

Lisa:I have one last question, sorry. Do you, given the story that you told us earlier about meeting the boys from Stockton, and their father had been shot, do you think that children growing up in California, for example, had different childhoods than yours, as you talked to them and met them in camp and other places in your life? Do you think Tacoma was unique, is I guess is the question.

Perry:I, I don’t, I don’t, I never thought about them, but I, you know, I think, I don’t, I, I don’t know other communities, so I really can’t say, but I think there was less... Well, I, I just get the feeling that there was less animosity, but, you know, I was so small… I, my dad probably feel differently, I think he had, there were more racial incidents that he experienced. But he, he never, he never expressed, he never verbalized any, any thoughts on that matter. I, I think he, that he did experience racial prejudice, and, you know, I don’t remember any, I, where he, where he related such incidents, but I, you know, I sort of remember him expressing this feeling that there were ra-, there was racial prejudice against Japanese. But not, there were no, you know... The only, I remember he, he was mugged once, you know, but and he carried a pis-, after that he carried a pistol, so… But that’s all I remember.

Lisa:That was in Tacoma?

Perry:Uh-huh.

Lisa:Great.

Well thank you very much. We really appreciate your participation and your, your candor. It’s really interesting. Thank you.

Perry:Okay, I hope I was helpful.

Mary:Yeah, of course. Yeah.