Tacoma Japanese Language School Oral History Collection

Mary:Well, this is an interview with Mrs. June Mieko Hayashi. Her father was born in Japan; her mother was born in the United States. She is 64 years old. She lives in Altadena California. It is, today, January 27th, 2005. My name is Mary Hanneman; I'm from the University of Washington, Tacoma.

Lisa:And I'm Lisa Hoffman, also from the University of Washington, Tacoma, and we are here in Los Angeles at the Japanese-American National Museum. And we thought we would start with just some basic background questions. If you could tell us when you were born, where you were born, and something about your siblings, as well.

June:Okay. I was born in 1940, June 6th. My place of birth was Longview, Washington. My father was a foreman in the sawmill camps, and I think we lived in the camps there in Longview. I, uh, let's see, at that time... I think the oldest--well, the three of us were born there. So, my older brother is three years older than I am. Mason Isau--well I think they always use the Japanese name first--Isau Mason Shirozu, uh, three years older than I. And then I have a younger sister, two years younger than I am, and that's Reiko Dorothy, and she was also born in Longview. And I think my mother just took care of us then. She was just a housewife. She did not work.

Mary:You mentioned that your father was from Japan, born in Japan--

June:Right.

Mary:And your mother was born in the United States. Could you tell us a little bit of background about both of your parents?

June:Okay. My, uh, let's see...I wrote some things down because I had to look up everything. Because we take for granted all these things. My father was born on January 10th, 1907 in Fukuoka, Japan, and he had a very sad life, so we knew very little about him. And it's only much, much later that we found out all these things about him. He came here at age sixteen. His mother and stepfather immigrated to America, I would think probably in the 1920s or so, and then he came later. And after meeting his side of the family, not because we went there. Fifty years later, we get a phone call from his cousin, because his son was a HAM operator and found out that my father lived in Tacoma. And then, by then my parents moved out to California, so they called us and he said, "I'm in town; I want to see you." So, we went to the airport, and they recognized each other after 50 years.

Lisa:That's amazing.

June:And so, that's how we began to learn a little bit about my dad. I think his mother and father divorced. There were only two girls in the family left, because I think the uncle passed away. From what I understand, they used to ship rice from Fukuoka to Osaka, and on one of their trips everyone came down with cholera, and the whole family died aboard the ship. And so there were two young girls left, and one was my father's mother, so they just married them off. And I don't know if you've heard this, the term "yoshi" before, but if they want to carry on a family name, then they take the family name, which was Shirozu. And so, that's how, you know, my father's first father became a Shirozu, but when they divorced I think he went back to his original name. And then my father lived with him for a while, but the other sister felt that he was a part of this family and the only one to carry on the family name, so they went and brought him back from the father. And then the mother found out, and then she wanted him in America, so that's when he came. And I told you that he came at 16, tried to go to school, went to Central Elementary School, was put into kindergarten at 16, and all the kids made fun of him. He discontinued school after that. He said that he used to run and hide from them. He was so embarrassed. This is a story that my sister relayed to me, that she heard from dad. I didn't even hear that story, so... Uh, Mom was born on May 23rd, 1916, and I believe she was born in Milton, Washington, because that's where my grandfather had a farm. In the book Furusato that you mentioned I think my mother's family, they're mentioned in that book because they came--according to my aunt that I called on the telephone, and what they can recollect--they came in the 1890s.

And so, in that group came the Kawasaki family, uh, probably the Fujimotos as well. They're all from the same place, I think. And my great-grandfather, my grandfather, my great-grandmother, great-grandmother on the maternal side as well, her two sons Frank and there was an older son Togo who passed away. I understand he married an Indian princess from somewhere in Washington, and we have met some of the children afterwards, but they're very little Indian now, and they don't look Japanese at all. Mostly, they look very Caucasian today, but they have some Indian blood in them still and some Japanese blood in them, so it's kind of interesting. And I think my aunt used to keep in contact with that family, but I don't know. And so I think Mom and Dad got married in about, let's see...what did I figure out? About 1936. Yeah.

Lisa:What was your mother's maiden name?

June:Her maiden name was Iida, I-I-D-A.

Mary:You were born in Longview. Did you move to Tacoma before you went to the camps?

June:My grandfather was farming in that area, and so when he knew that the war was going to break out, and something was going on, he called all his family together. And then we went to the Puyallup assembly center together, and so that's why we all ended up at the same, you know, the same camp, which was Minidoka, Idaho.

Mary:And so your entire family, including your grandparents, were at Minidoka.

June:Yes. Uh, by then, I think my grandmother had passed away. I don't know about Great-grandfather. I can't recall, but I know that my father's stepfather--I know my father's mother went back to Japan and died aboard the ship, and whoever was with her pretended that she didn't die, because they didn't want to just deep-six her into the ocean, I guess. I shouldn't say it that way, but they didn't want to put her in--because that's what they did. And they pretended that she was alive and that she was sick, and two people carried her off the boat, and she had already passed away. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. And this is a story I was told when I went to Japan, how she came--

Mary:By your relatives over there.

June:Yes. And so... Because the burial spot is so important to Japanese people. And I'm a minority, but I'm a double minority, because I'm also Buddhist, because that's the way we were brought up. So, anyways...

Mary:Maybe this isn't the time to ask this question, but you were Buddhist, yet your family after the war lived in the Methodist Church.

June:Yes. But you know, it is really interesting because in Tacoma it didn't make any difference where you went. You know, I grew up like that, then I come to California where it makes a difference. You know, I, uh, it's very interesting because I remember when we, uh, my father tried farming for a while, and at that time I think my grandfather was farming in Fife, and they were kind of, I don't know, somebody else owned the land, but they were working it, and I remember Reverend Mewah (sp?) from the Methodist Church coming to pick us up by car to take us to church.

Mary:To take you to the Buddhist Church?

June:No, to take us to the Methodist Church. And we went to the Methodist Church. It didn't make any difference. You know, uh, I think that's kind of how they view religion in Japan. They're not--they just have so many that, you know, it doesn't make any difference. But my father's family were really Higashi Buddhists, because I had to go back to Japan to, uh...since my father passed away they wanted to have someone take care of the o-haka, which is the cemetery plot for the family. I had to go there and went through the ceremony with my mother and my brother, so that we could move it to one of my cousins'--closer to my cousins so someone would therefore always look after it for us. And so that's one of the things we did when we went to Japan.

Mary:You gave a very interesting, I think, good explanation of why in Tacoma the--you know, because in Japan, you know, the different religions it's very tolerant of them.

June:Right, right.

Mary:Do you have any other ideas why in Tacoma it was that way, and especially since, you say, in California it matters.

June:It matters. I really don't know, because our family was very, uh, well...let me say, "different" in that all the girls went to the Buddhist Church. And then I had an only brother, and so he didn't want to come to church with us because there were no boys in our age group, and so his best friends, Ryo and Frank, went to the Methodist Church. So, he went to the Methodist Church. It was okay with my parents, as long as we went somewhere. So, he always remained, not Buddhist, but not really Christian, either, but just kind of, you know...and we all accepted it. I don't know why. We used to have, uh, you know, basketball was something. They planned lots of activities for us because we could not really--my age group--did not do anything on the weekends with people at school. We lived two lives: one at school, one on the weekends, because we really weren't accepted...well, I was in all the clubs and so forth, but we never saw anybody on just a, you know, just personally, just as friends. We were just friends at school, and that was it. So, our church played a really big role in providing lots of activities for us. I had a great, you know...uh, childhood, actually.

Mary:What kind of two different--

June:Two different--we lived in two different worlds. Right, right. Exactly.

Mary:And you moved between them fairly freely, or...?

June:I think so. I think I did, because I, you know, I was very active in school clubs. I can't remember what they were anymore. But if I looked at my yearbook, I should have. But, you know, I remember now thinking about--back about it--I do have a little, some resentment, because when I went to my high school reunion, I felt... One of the things that really bothered me was that when we became seniors in high school, they used to have all these senior teas, and we were never invited to anything, but the senior teas we were invited to, because that's something that all the senior girls did. But I thought, gee what a burden it was for our parents, because they had to buy us new clothes to go to these things, you know. And then one time I got some kind of an honor for being active at school, and we would present these flowers to these trees outside, and I can't even remember what the significance of it is anymore, but everybody had to wear a white dress. Well, you know, we could hardly afford our clothing, so my mother hand sewed a white dress for me, because she did not have a machine--sewing machine. And I don't know if I appreciated it that much. But now, you know, I think about it, and I think, "Oh, my God, how could anyone do something like that?" All the time and love and effort that went into that.

Lisa:So, you went to Central Elementary--

June:Central Elementary, and then I went to McCarver Junior High School, and then from McCarver, we went to Stadium. Stadium High School.

Lisa:What year did you graduate?

June:I graduated in 1958.

Lisa:And were your parents active at all in your public school in Stadium, or any kind of parent...PTA?

June:No, not at all. Let's see, when I first came back from relocation, we went to Mrs. Rhys' (Sp?) bible School, and this is where I learned all these Christian hymns, because we used to march around, singing "Onward Christian Soldiers," and we were all Japanese, so I have a feeling that, uh, our parents took us there as a protective way before they could get us into school. I remember I went to first grade. I don't think I went to kindergarten. I went to first grade. We had to take an intelligence test to make sure that we were intelligent enough to go to... And I think I kind of remember our parents being very upset by that, you know. But, you know, when I--if I remember the test, it was just tricycle, and you had to draw the wheel in, so was just like very... And so then we started first grade, uh, there. But when I first went there, everyone would come up and ask me, "Are you Indian?" And I would say, "No, I'm not." And they'd say, "Well, we can't play with you." So, yeah. They can't play with you. This was very early on.

Lisa:In Central.

June:At Central. And then, as we--so all of my friends became, uh, the German girls, uh, the Latvians, uh, and the other Japanese girls.

Mary:So, kind of the immigrant community.

June:Uh-huh, uh-huh. And I remember coming home with someone--with a group of girls walking home from school--and we were all invited, and then she had to come out to tell me that I couldn't come in, because her father was in the war. So I couldn't come home. That was really, you know, very, very sad for me, I think.

Mary:This was obviously after the war.

June:Yeah, right. And then I met a friend that ended up being, you know, we ended up going all the way through high school--Marlene Erinheim (Sp?) And I remember walking home with her from school, and this lady came out, and she told me, "Get off the sidewalk, you dirty..." And I said, uh, and so, you know, right away I wanted to get off the sidewalk. She held me there, and she said, "You are an American, and you deserve to be here." And she made me walk up and down in front of this lady. I was scared to death, but I think that's when I first realized that we have rights, too, you know. But, uh, she was the first one who felt so strongly. But I'm sure it's because she must have faced a lot of prejudice, as well, being German.

Mary:And how old were you then, about?

June:Let's see...that would be about, um, when I first met Marlene it must have been like fourth or fifth grade, yeah. Uh-huh. Because we were in elementary school yet when this happened.

Lisa:You were still--you were little.

June:Yes, yes. All these things happened when I was little. "Are you Indian?" "You can't come in my house." But our friends were, uh--another friend, uh, gosh, I can't remember her name anymore...Schweitzer. Her father came from the death camps. He had a tattoo on his, uh, wrist. And we became good friends. And then, but, as we went through high school, all those girls were able to assimilate much more easily than I. And so, when I graduated from high school I went to Central Washington State College, and I ran into a lot of kids that I went to high school with that we never even, you know, we just were acquaintances that became good friends, because once you're away from where you are, and there are fewer of us, then we became friends. So, college was a different experience.

Lisa:Did your parents tend to socialize with Marlene's parents or were there--

June:No, no. My mother used to do housework for a lot of families in Tacoma for part-time, and she ended up having, uh... those people were really good to her, and as a matter of fact, one of the men--his name was Lloyd Knutsen--he had three or four children, and my mother used to help him with his children and housework and cleaning and so forth. He became a lifetime friend of my mom's afterwards, and he would every Christmas always remember my mom, and he would always send her money, because he said, "I pay you so little. I'm so ashamed."

Lisa:Oh.

June:Yes. And, "You did so much for us." And so, he became a lifetime friend

Lisa:I also have a question about those intelligence tests...

June:Right.

Lisa:...before you went into first grade.

June:Right.

Lisa:Did all of the children take this test, or...?

June:Just the Japanese children.

Lisa:Just the Japanese children.

June:Right. That's what I recall.

Lisa:Yeah.

Mary:And your father, you said earlier, didn't speak much English...

June:Right.

Mary:...but your mother, of course, did.

June:Yes.

Mary:Did they speak in English to one another, or...?

June:No, they spoke Japanese to one another, and then English to us. But my father learned to speak English. He could speak somewhat, but he never, uh... My mother's the one that did mostly everything, yeah.

Lisa:So, was the primary language at home, then, English?

June:English.

Lisa:It was.

June:It was English, right. And then of course food--all American food, because we did not have a Japanese grocery store in Tacoma. And I think the fish man or the tofu man might come every once in a while, so then we would get that, but, you know, I grew up with spaghetti and macaroni and cheese and spam, and just, you know, that kind of thing. So, when I married my husband, whose mother was born here, but she was raised in Japan and then she came back and got married, they had nothing but Japanese food. And so, my husband had never eaten cheese, or... (laughs) He's gotten used to it.

Mary:He was sheltered.

June:I--yeah, he was sheltered the other way. (laughs) But I do really think that our parents really protected us, I really do. You know, I think--the one thing that I always heard from my father was, "Why can't you be like the other Japanese girls? Why do you always want to do everything?" Yeah.

And then, for employment, you know, for, uh, during the summers, all the Japanese farms would hire us during the summertime. And so we would earn, after working probably all summer, maybe enough to buy our school clothes. And so that's what we did. Yeah, every summer.

Lisa:So, earlier you mentioned that you also have a younger sister.

June:Right.

Lisa:She was not born in Longview with the rest of--

June:Right. She was born in Minidoka, in camp. Uh-huh.

Lisa:And so you were all--just to kind of go back a little on the history--

June:Okay.

Lisa:Your grandfather called everybody back to Milton?

June:Yeah, I think so. Uh-huh.

Lisa:And then you went to--

June:Puyallup.

Lisa:Puyallup.

June:Assembly center.

Lisa:And Minidoka.

June:Right.

Lisa:And do you have--I know you were a very little girl, and maybe you family talked about it later--do you have memories of hearing about the camps and the orders to register to go to Puyallup?

June:I don't remember any of that at all. The only recollection I have at that time is I would get deathly carsick, because we didn't have a car, and I hardly ever rode in one. And so, when we had to go on the train to Idaho I was deathly sick. You know, and then besides that, they had all the shades drawn, so that we wouldn't know where we were going. And then they had armed guards aboard, and I think I threw up on someone, probably a soldier. Poor thing. Yeah, but that's the only thing that I remember. And then once we... I think the other thing I kind of remember is that we got chicken pox as soon as we got there.

Mary:Oh, boy.

June:And so my sister and I, we had to be hospitalized and quarantined from the rest of the people in camp, because they didn't want to have an epidemic. So I do remember that and I remember people coming to visit us at the hospital, but couldn't get close to us. I remember that.

Mary:That must have been especially traumatic.

June:Yeah, I think so. But there were two of us, so at least there were two of us who were together.

Lisa:So what year was your sister born?

June:My sister was born in 1942, and my next sister was born in 1944, right before we came out of camp.

Lisa:Okay, that's a lot for...

June:For my mom. I know. But she had lots of help, because the Tamana (Sp.?) girls were family friends, I think, and they were teenagers, so they loved us. So, they would, you know, so when I look at this camp picture that I had here, um, one is standing by my brother, and the other one is standing by me, so they're kind of like, you know, big sister babysitter type people, yeah. And so, I think my mother had lots of help. And the only other thing that I remember about camp was the dust storms and having to run back from wherever we were with my mom to close everything up in the house, but it was still coming through. It was just like in every--it was just like blowing. We could hardly see to get our way back. And then I remember the very, very cold winters, 'cause it's Idaho.

Lisa:And then your family decided to come back to Tacoma.

June:Right, right, because my father originally emigrated from there to Tacoma.

Lisa:Mm-hmm.

June:And then I don't know why he decided he was going to farm, but he started working for the Fujimoto family at the dry cleaners.

Mary:And he started working there because he had already had a relationship with them?

June:I think so. I think there must be a--that must be, on his side of the family, a close relationship. I never knew exactly what it was, but they were just like aunties and uncles to us. You know, that's how close we are.

Lisa:And when you first came back to Tacoma, you lived in the Methodist Church?

June:(nodding) Front hallway.

Lisa:In the front hallway.

June:Hallway, right.

Mary:I can exactly--

June:You can envision that, right?

Mary:It's kind of long--

June:Long and narrow, right. And then I think we had different times to use the kitchen. And this is where I met one of my, uh, lifetime girlfriends, Jeanette Fukuta, because they lived in one of the small rooms. We had the bigger room, because we're the larger family, but she had the little small room with her grandmother and her mother and herself, I think.

Mary:So, other families also--how many--

June:I think so. I don't know, because it was just her and, you know, her family. That's the only one I remember, and then from there we went to the Japanese schoolhouse, and I don't know if you ever saw that building...

Lisa:Yes.

June:You did. But when we lived in it, we lived on the side, you know, the office was at the top going back like this. We lived on the bottom floor, and so therefore we could get in and out of our "house" at that time through the windows. So, we would jump out the windows and run around, you know, because it was a field or blackberry bushes or something next to it, right?

Lisa:It's still blackberry bushes.

June:Yes, blackberry bushes. And then, um, we thought it was neat, because they had the chalkboards, so we were able to-- Maybe that's why two of us out of the four ended up being artists. My brother was an illustrator in New York.

Lisa:Neat.

June:Uh-huh, and he went to the University of Washington, and graduated from there and went to Korea, and then came back, and after graduating in art at the University, about the only thing he could do was, like, dress windows almost, you know. It's not a real professional--well, it's a, you know, he maybe could teach art history, or something. So then he, um, came--when my parents moved down here, he enrolled at the art center and graduated with honors from there, and then went to New York, and then worked as an illustrator until he passed away. (26:14)

Mary:So, you guys expressed yourselves freely as children.

June:Yeah, I think so. Yeah, the chalkboards, and I think my mother used to always go to--what was the Tacoma newspaper? God, I can't remember.

Lisa:The News-Tribune.

June:The News-Tribune. And she used to pick up the newsprint. You could buy it very cheaply, and she would come home with reams of newsprint. So we drew all the time. We just drew all the time. And so, I don't know. That made us become what we did. (camera begins jiggling around sporadically)

Lisa:Do you remember how long you were in the Methodist Church and the school building?

June:I don't remember. I think that was very, very temporary. And then when we went up to the Japanese schoolhouse and lived there... I would really have to ask Teddy how long we stayed there, but I know that we went to their house to take our baths.

Mary:Oh, really?

June:You know, I don't know how often, but I remember going down there. We would all have to wait, and we would bathe there. I don't know, did the Japanese schoolhouse have showers?

Lisa:I don't remember seeing them, but the Yamasaki's lived there...

Mary:Oh, that's right.

Lisa:...so there must have been one bathroom.

June:Okay, but we went--yeah. And I don't know if there were other families living there. I can't really remember. I don't know if we were there just because of the Fujimoto's, or... And then later we found a house on Fawcett Avenue, owned by the only probably the only other Orientals in Tacoma, that were Chinese. And, uh...the Wong's. And I think the Wong's used to have a dime store or something in... Did they? The Wong's?

Lisa:Yeah, I'm not sure, yeah.

June:Yeah, okay. Well, that's the family that rented a house behind them to us, and then we lived there for quite some time. And then, they had another house on Fawcett, which was 1510, and they let my father buy it from them. And because--I often hear my mom and dad say--because they bought the house early on, that was the only way they could have put us through college, because they had already paid for the house by the time we were ready for school. So, they put the three of us through college. I think my younger sister started at the University of Washington, but did not finish. I have a feeling that, whereas the older two kind of you never think about where the money comes from, or how we're paying for this, I think that for my youngest sister it must have been very, very hard, because she was the last one, and my mom had put three of us through school. And I did not have any student loans when I graduated, so they probably paid for everything. My sister, Dorothy, had a job--I think a part time typing job on campus, but I--I think I might have worked in the cafeteria to help pay for our spending money. But I think I was really spoiled, and I--because they never let us really know the hardships that they were going through. We never really knew that we didn't have money. We never--I mean, if we needed something, we eventually got it, but we never asked probably for a whole lot, either. But I took care of my mother until she passed away. My father died at 67. My mother lived with us for twenty-five years. And everybody says to me, "Why are you doing this?" And I said, "Well, I think I was really spoiled, and my mother did so much for me. I owe it to her. And not only that, but I want to do this for her. Yeah, so she lived with us until she passed away in our home.

So, I feel happy that I did that, because there are no "overs" in life.

Mary:That's right.

June:Right. I try to tell that to many, many people. You can't do things over. But I'm still, I think that--I don't know. There's something about me that has so many different interests. I would say I like to do so many things that I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do for the rest of my life. When I'm grown up. I don't know how many things that I've done, but, um...yeah.

Lisa:So then your father started working in Fujimoto's dry cleaning business.

June:Right.

Lisa:And did your mother also work--

June:She was doing housework for those different people.

Lisa:And you also I think mentioned that your father worked in Dr. Tambara's office for a while?

June:No. He never--Dr. Tambara became our pediatrician.

Lisa:Okay.

June:Yeah, so he looked after our health, and my father's health, and, you know, just because we were part of that family. So we have known them all of our lives in Tacoma. Right.

Mary:Did the Wongs, family that you mentioned, did they have children?

June:I have no idea.

Mary:So, you didn't have Chinese playmates?

June:No, no, no, uh, no. I--by the time that we came back after the war, there were so few people in Tacoma. My class of 500 in 1958 from Stadium High School, I think there was maybe four of us that were Japanese-Americans.

Mary:Is that right?

June:Yeah.

Mary:So, the war, I mean that was, going to the camps was the big dividing--

June:Right. A lot of people didn't come back. I think they went where there were more people, more Japanese people, especially California. God, when I came down here, I felt like I was in Japan. You know, I didn't know how to use chopsticks, I barely ate any Japanese food, um, I didn't even pronounce Japanese names correctly. You know, in Washington all of our family Japanese names became kind of, like, not Japanese. My auntie is Auntie Haruko. We called her Auntie Harko. And my Uncle Much was Uncle Masao, and he was Uncle Much. You know, and uh, so we became so Americanized, and I think probably on purpose, you know, to assimilate. I think when my grandfather came here, my grandfather spoke English, and he's from Japan. So, he spoke English to us. I think he wanted to become a male nurse at one time, so he studied English so that, you know, that he could do something else in his life. And then, probably the war and everything, so, everything changed after that. But I think my great-grandfather must have--you know, I thought I didn't speak any Japanese at all. I mean, that was in my mind forever, that I spoke no Japanese. And then I went to Japan for the first time, maybe twenty years ago or longer, and I could understand some things, and so I had a hearing vocabulary that I did not know I had, yeah. So, that must have been from when I was very little. And since then, you know, I've been to Japan about 5 times, visiting relatives and so forth and watching Japanese programs, so I'm able to at least, um, communicate somewhat.

Mary:When you said earlier that you had become Americanized, maybe as a protective kind of a thing, do you think that your parents kind of consciously thought that, or did you consciously think that, about becoming Americanized?

June:I think that when I was reading this annual, it said something in here about, uh, really, uh, that we are Americans, and I think that in order to become an American at that time it was leaving everything Japanese behind. And I think that one of the things that--I don't know if I was told or if it's a recollection, uh, when we left the sawmill camps, they dug a big hole, and they burned everything Japanese. We had nothing Japanese left. Nothing.

Lisa:When you left Longview.

June:Longview. Because I have pictures of my brother with these really big Japanese, uh, white horse, you know, that's for they give, uh, the son in the family, and for the girls, they give the Girls' Day dolls. We had all of that--all of those things, you know, but, uh, when we came back we had

none. So, I knew that they burned and buried a lot of things, because what could you do with it? And you could only carry one suitcase or what you could carry, and they had two young children...so...

Lisa:You also told a story earlier of walking down the street in Tacoma with your father.

June:Right, right. Um, it took me a long time to really understand what that was all about, and I think I've always had a question in my mind, like, "Why are we doing this?" But every time I would walk down the street with my dad, um... And usually I had to go with my dad because he wanted to buy something at the department store, and he would want me to do all the buying, because he felt his Japanese was so poor. He was a very, very proud person. And so, we would walk down the street, and we would cross the street, and we would walk a little bit more, and we would cross the street. I mean, we would do this like a lot of times, and I said. "Dad, what [sic] are we doing this?" And he would never say anything. And so, it wasn't until years and years later that I realized that because they would spit at us, or because they would call us names, or confront my father, that he just didn't want this, and so he just avoided it. And I think, uh, when I realized this I told my sister, and we wept. We did, because we didn't--we thought, "Why?" You know. How sad it was for him! How sad!

Mary:This is what I was wondering when you had that revelation, was it because you also had that--your own feeling?

June:I think, you know, when I--I think that we have deep-rooted feelings that, even my husband and I. One of the things that came out in an L.A. Times article when we were doing our show that we had never thought about, that we just--we both read it. We both cried, just recently. And that is that the Japanese that were taken from their homes and went to camp, we felt so ashamed. It wasn't like felt bad because, you know, uh, because...but we felt ashamed that they didn't trust us, and I think that is a really strong--I never thought about it. My husband never thought about it. So, a lot of people choose not to talk about it, because it's a very shameful part of their history. Why--weren't we good enough to have stayed here? I mean, weren't we good enough? Why did they take us? We have to be better when we come back so that we can assimilate, so that we can become Americans and they would want us back again. And so, I think that's what we've been doing all of our lives. We, you know, you have to throw away your Japanese-ness in order to become a good American. I mean, that's what they were telling us, that we must be too Japanese and too loyal to Japan, and that's why they were afraid of us. I mean, that's the message, I think, that was sent. And then, when we adopted our son... You know, it comes back to that, even. You know, he could have gotten his citizenship very easily, because it's very easy when you adopt a child from Japan. I kept going down to Immigration, kept getting the things, we kept filling it out, and it came to my husband's turn, and he just would not do it. And then, so then, by then that paper was too old, so we'd go down and get another one. I said, "You know, Ken," I says, "Have you been to Immigration before?" He says, "That is just the worst place on this earth to be. They treat you so badly in those offices. I feel sorry for all these people that don't speak English. When it's lunch, you've been standing in line for hours, they close the gate and say, 'Come back.'" You know, that's the way they treat us here in Los Angeles at Immigration. I don't know what it's like now. This was, uh, you know, maybe...uh, my son is forty-one...about over twenty years ago. And so finally, I says, "Ken, we have to do this, because he'll be graduating from college pretty soon." And so, we filled out all the forms, and you know, he has to be fingerprinted, and he has to have his picture taken. We took off one whole day, and we did all of this. We sent that in; he turned eighteen. They sent it back to us and said now he has to apply himself. (laughs) So, I told my son, "I really feel badly." I says that--He says, "Oh, no." He says, "That's not a problem, Mom." So he goes, and he fills out all the paper, and we send everything back in again, and as it turns out, we stopped to think--I said, "Ken, why do you think we couldn't fill this out? Is it because we don't feel American? Is it because this is not important to us?" But it is important to have this for him, you know. And so then, um, Akhi had graduated from--I think he had graduated when he was like 18 or 19 or so by the time--oh, 19, maybe. And so, I says, "Well," You know he was called up to go get his exam, so I says, "Well I'd better go with him." And Ken said, "You're going to go with a nineteen year-old? He should be able to do this himself." And I says, "No, I feel like I owe it to him, because we didn't do this sooner." So, I go there. Everybody is sitting around us, and they're studying, you know, for this exam, and my son is sitting there so casually. I said, "Well, Akhi, don't you think you should, like, study?" He says, "Mom, I've been educated in this country, and if I can't pass this test, there's something wrong with the education. I'm going, "Oh!" (laughs) Isn't that funny? And so, there was a young lady sitting next to us, and she had this kind of an outline of different things, and I says, "Can my son just look at this?" And he goes, "Oh, Mom!" And I said, "Just look at it." So he read through it. He goes in there, and I have to stay outside, of course. And he comes back and he says, "Well, I passed, Mom." And he says, "Would you know that he asked me who is the President of the United States?" That was it, because he found out he was adopted, that he had been educated here, he speaks English. So that was it.

Lisa:How interesting.

June:Yeah.

...they'd give a speech and so forth, and there were thousands of people being sworn in on that day, but I thought that was really good. So, it turned out to be a good experience.

Lisa:So, now you're also doing some performances.

June:Yes.

Lisa:Can you tell us a little bit about that?

June:Okay. Well, I'm involved in the Grateful Crane Ensemble, and the way, uh, I got involved with this is, um, my girlfriend Keiko--oh, she could be my daughter--Keiko Kawashima, uh, knows that I can do many things, you know, so she called me one day, and she wanted me to make dog ears for a program that they were putting on at the, uh, Akedo Nursing Home. And what they did is they had a, um, we had bilingual troupe--Japanese nationals as well as Japanese-Americans, and they were putting on programs, just very simple programs at the nursing home. And so, one of--they were doing old folk tales from Japan, and they needed dog ears. So, then I said, "Oh, yeah, I can make dog ears. So I made the dog ears and delivered it to them. And, um, the performance was wonderful, very simple, and the audience enjoyed it so much, because it was in Japanese. And them, um, they would sing old Japanese songs, and you could hear people humming and singing along, you know, people that are in their eighties and nineties and hundreds, and, uh, crying, because, uh, it was nostalgic for them. And then all the kids would come down afterwards and greet each person. And so it was such a neat thing, so I says, "Well, you know, if you ever need me to do anything else, just give me a call." And so, of course, they called, because these are all freebies, right? Because we're a small group starting out. And so, then, uh, I don't know if you saw the Jive Bomber's Christmas, because that did come to Seattle, and, uh, this group was doing that, so I, um...this was a touring group. We had one that stayed in this area, but these girls were going to go to Hawaii and Seattle and a few other places, so we had to make a whole new set of costumes, and they needed hand puppets, and so they [asked], "June, can you make some hand puppets for us?" "Oh, sure." Well, you know. I had to go on the internet to see how to make a puppet. (laughs) But I made these puppets for them. And then, um, the guy, um, the customer was sitting there, and he was, like, "Well, what do you think, June? What do you think of this, and what do you think of that?" And so I says, "Well, yeah, okay. Well, let me sew this on for you," or "Let me go down to the downtown to look for some trim for you." And so then I started helping him with costumes.

And then, that started, you know, working with East-West where I did A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. I did costumes--worked on those. And, like, um, I did Little Shop of Horrors, I helped with the puppets--making the puppets, uh, with the puppeteer from, um, that used to work with Jim Henson. So, what a great thing, you know, you get to work with all these wonderful people, and you're amongst all these young, aspiring actors, and, um, who always invited us to all their performances. And my husband said--he's really perfect for me, because he allows me to, um...He does his thing, and I do my thing, and we do our things together. But he's very--I think we make ourselves interesting for one another because we do these things. And, uh, one day I had gone to three performances by one of my new friends--one of the actresses--and he says, "You know, if you don't mind," he says, "can you find somebody else to go with the next time, because we've already seen this show three times?" (laughs) And I was just trying to fill her audience, so, uh... (laughs) But, uh, but it [was] a very good show. But I says, "Oh, yeah, I kind of forgot that, um, you know," just because I love the children, you know, that he might not want to see them every single time. So then, um, we started, um, doing other programs, and I was doing the costume for those programs. And we would do... Do you know what Kohaku, Kohaku Uta Gassen is? Every New Year's in Japan they choose, uh, they invite these performers to perform in a, uh, a New Year's Eve program. And so we started doing a spoof on that. Oh, and it was so much fun, you know we would--so I got to do some outrageous costumes and, um... So, from there, then, we ended up, uh, doing some other, uh, camp-type things, and then we ended up with the Camp Dance and Music and Memories. And this turned out to be such a meaningful show, because it's, um, I think the thing that impresses me the most about this show is that, um, it approaches everything with humor and sadness, so you're laughing one minute, you're crying the next probably, you know. And then in the end what it's all about is to remember what our ancestors have gone through so that we have a better life today,

and to thank them while they're still around, and then to also thank those that were in the 442 and the MIS, to let them--to acknowledge, uh, them, because, you know, that also made it possible for our lives to be better, as well. So, uh, we're honoring those people, and I think now it's gonna have to be the Issei are the fastest appearing, so now it's the Nisei are also fastest appearing. But, um, when we go to Kato now, it's like a lot of English spoken now. We're losing a lot of the Japanese, um, Issei, so the show has to adjust. But, um...

Lisa:Oh, I see, yeah.

June:Yeah, so you'll enjoy the show. I hope you get a chance to see it.

Lisa:We hope so.

June:Yeah.

Lisa:I actually had some questions, uh, just going back to some of the stories you were telling, did any of your other relatives' or parents' siblings go back to Tacoma, or was it just your family?

June:Ah, let's see... I think there's a lot of families, especially in the valley--Fife, the Fife area--a lot of those farmers all came back. In Tacoma itself, I think that there would be not too much employment to come back to. And so, unless you had, like, a dry-cleaning business, uh... All the people that had dry-cleaning businesses came back, because there are, like, three or four Japanese dry-cleaning businesses in Tacoma. And, uh, I think my girlfriend, Jeanette, what ended up being her stepfather, he was a conductor on the train. So then he came back. Uh...let me see. Who else? Some people maybe that were gardeners, I guess. I, you know, um, the Yotsues. But it is almost--you can almost count them on your hands, but they had something to come back for, or come back to. Maybe they had even a house. I don't know. But otherwise, the fishing industry was totally gone. The lumber mills in Longview were probably no longer. I don't know. They weren't hiring. Or whether they could just go back there... So everybody had to find a new profession and a new way of life, and they really had to start all over again. So, most people came, uh, probably to California, I would think.

Lisa:And your aunts and uncles, they--

June:Okay, my aunts and uncles, uh, they all stayed, because they're farmers. My, uh, my grandfather's farm. 'Cause in that Furusato book, I think my grandfather, uh, Iida, they brought the way of, uh, doing strawberries to the Pacific Northwest. And if you look in the book, I think his name is mentioned...Iida's. And, um, 'cause I know that they were, uh, berry farmers from a long time ago, 'cause my mother always used to say that during the depression, uh, they had all the berries that they could eat. Nobody was buying them. They had to dump them in the river or the lakes, because, you know, no one's buying them at that time. So, um, so, you know, they went through very hard times. But, because my grandfather was a farmer, then they came back. And then, um, let's see. He was farm--my uncle's name is Milton, so I know that they lived in Milton, then later on in Fife area, where they farmed, and then, um, I think one by one all of them ended up leaving the farm. Um, my mother's younger sister's husband became a logger, and so, uh, in the Kent area. I think he had a contract with Japan to bring logs over there. So that's what he did. And then my Uncle George was the oldest son. He stayed with my grandfather until he died, and he continued--he was the only one who was left as a farmer, eventually moved to Auburn, and then now he lives in Puyallup, I think. But then he has since passed away. And then my Uncle Milton, he, um, went into business with some man in Seattle, and they had a boat business. And so then he left. And then my Uncle Bob was the youngest. I think he stayed on the farm until he got married, and then maybe, um, eventually became a gardener and lived in Seattle until he died. All my uncles have passed away. Yeah, and I, um, they all had heart attacks, and all at a very young age. Yeah.

Lisa:And I think you said that your parents then moved to California?

June:Yes.

Lisa:And what was that decision about?

June:Okay, I think that the dry-cleaning business became so slow, and my father really felt like they were just keeping him on--just because. And so since I had moved to California--we got married in 1961--and so he came, like, shortly after, like '62 or '63, I think. Let's see, when did he pass away? He died in '74, so no, maybe he came in the 70s. Dad died in 1974, so he probably came in the '70s. And, um, he had lived with us for a while and then thought he was going to do dry cleaning, and then he thought, "Well, maybe I'll be a gardener like everybody else and do my own business." And so he, um, started gardening, and he really had his best years then, because he loved it. He, um, used to--his hobby was growing chrysanthemums, you know, those huge... And, uh, my mom and dad were able to have vacations, whereas, when you work for Japanese, you know, families I don't think anyone took a vacation. So, he never had a vacation all the years that we had been growing up. So, um... and then he eventually died of cancer, and I have a feeling that's attributed to the chemicals that they used when they were dry-cleaning, because I have other friends whose parents did that and died of cancer, as well. Because now there are, like, you know...but anyways... Um, so he never got to return to Japan, which was very sad for me because his cousin came 50 years later, and they met. And my father was planning to go to Japan the next year. He died within 30 days.

Lisa:After meeting?

June:No, uh, about...well, about maybe a few months after that he just discovered the cancer, uh, and it was gall bladder, it went to the liver, and then he was just... and in those days they couldn't, uh, do the treatment directly to a source. So, um, he was gone in less than 30 days. Yeah. And so, that's why I went to Japan with my mother and my brother, to, uh, you know go meet all these... And I think that he would never have wanted to go to Japan, because the immigrant's dream was to come to America, do well, and then go back to Japan and live, right? But, um, he never said anything about his family. Our name is so unusual--I don't think you've ever heard a name like Shirozu before--that when I, um... I met Ken, my husband because he was at Fort Lewis, and our church used to, um, feed all the Nisei boys, um, Japanese food for lunch. And he's really--was Catholic. Because, uh, Catholic only because the Catholic missions. A mission offered Ken's father a job, and then they were able to go to the Parochial school and everything without paying, because the father worked there. So, anyways, Ken came to, you know, church along with all the other Niseis to eat lunch, and so that's when I met him, because he had hardly any boys that were our age there, except my brother and his two friends that were older than us.

Lisa:So, when was that? How old were you at that time?

June:Let's see, I was probably in high school. That was in the late 50s, yeah. 'Cause I met Ken before I, um, went to college. And then, um, let's see, we were writing and then we eventually got married, so...in '61.

Mary:And you returned with your mother and your brother to Japan--

June:Yes, I did.

Mary:--after your father passed away. Was that the first time your mother had been to Japan?

June:The first time my mother had ever been to Japan, and the first time for us, too, and it--and we went with a JACL group, and you should see all of us. We were experiencing something so weird.

Mary:Oh! Tell us about that.

June:We felt like we were going home. Why should we feel like we were going home? And then once we got there, they were calling us gaijins as soon as we would speak. So that was "foreigner," foreigner. And we thought, wow, you know. So, we would all get together at night, and we were just all sitting together, just like, everyone is stunned, not really understanding what's happening to us. "No, we don't belong there. No, we don't belong here. Where do we belong?" you know, kind of thing. And then there was other people in our group that when somebody would come up and speak Japanese to them, they would get so angry! "I'm not Japanese, I'm an American!" You know, that kind of thing. So there was a lot of really different emotions that, uh... and I think for many of us this was a first trip. And, "Do I look like I come from Japan?" This kind of thing, you know. "Don't I look American?" It was really weird. So, we went all over Japan, I mean it was a wonderful tour, and then we ended up visiting our relatives in Kyushu, which is in the southern, you know, south.

And, uh, when I got there I met my cousin that was a HAM--the cousin's son who was a HAM--a radio operator. He could speak English, and he looked at me, and after spending a few days with me he says, "You know," he says, "You're not quite Japanese, and you're not quite American--not quite what I pictured as American." And so I said, "That's really a great observation." I says, "I felt like that most of my life." (laughs)

Mary:Is that right?

June:Yeah, I really did. I felt not here and not there. And, um... 'Cause I remember when I went to Central Washington, I put down on my information for the dorm that I was Buddhist, and I get a knock on my door I think the first day I was there--a freshman, first time away from home--knock on the door, and a young lady standing there, and she says, "Well, I just wanted to see what a Buddha looks like." And I thought, "My god!" (laughs) And so, then everybody started inviting me to their, you know, their, uh, church, you know, religious groups, and I finally said, you know, "If you're really interested--I mean you're really not interested in learning about Buddhism, because if you really were, then you would just go to the library, because there's a lot more there than I could really tell you." But I says, "But you want me to become a Christian." And I says, "That's the only reason you're inviting me, so I will have to say that I'm not interested, and if you want information, then there's plenty in the library." And so then that did it. So then they left me alone.

Lisa:Was there any Buddhist church, um...

June:Not in Ellensburg. There were barely any other Asian students, you know, there, actually. There were some girls from Hawaii. Yeah. And then the first time I went to Hawaii, that was an unusual experience, too, because they were majority at the time that I went. And, uh, Hawaiians are so much freer, because they haven't gone through all that--we were a little bit hesitant.

Mary:Oh, that's interesting.

June:Yeah. Then, therefore our kids, they don't feel like this at all, you know. Um, even if my son--he even told me, he said, um, when he was little, he said, "Mom, you're not a very good American." And I'm saying, "Well, why do you think that?" And he said, "Because if you were a good American, you would be adopting one of those Vietnamese children." That was when they were all being...okay. And then another time he said to us, "I'm the only Japanese in this house." And I'm going, "Why?" And he goes, "Because I was born in Japan. You and Dad are Americans." See how it's...very interesting how, uh, how...what a mixed message that we have for ourselves. So the Camp Dance, the show that we're doing, uh, is a time to really, um, think about these things and to be emotional about it and get--and kind of understand where you're from, I think.

Mary:Is there ever an answer?

June:I don't think there really is. I don't think there really is, but, um... But I think that what you have to do is you have to accept yourself as you are. You know, we are Americans...because we were born in this country. And, uh...but we are also Japanese.

Lisa:And being American doesn't have to mean acculturating...

June:Right, right. You have to be able to accept both sides of you. When you can do that, then I think you can feel comfortable in your skin. I think that when you feel like, you know, "I'm an American, and I won't have anything to do with the Japanese part of me," then I think that you're not comfortable in who you really are, I think.

Lisa:This concept may be helpful. There's an anthropologist that talks about something called cultural citizenship...

June:Mm-hmm.

Lisa:...so, understanding that citizenship can be all sorts of legal, formal mechanisms, but there is also a cultural aspect that is critical.

June:Mm-hmm.

Lisa:And he has actually done work with Latinos in America, but it's a very powerful concept, because it allows that to become a part of who you are, and having equality, but also indifference.

June:Right, right. My, uh, niece's little boy, he's so funny because my son at, uh, Thanksgiving brought over a Chinese girl--I don't think she's Chinese-American even--and my grandnephew said, uh, well, I had said to, uh,

(Shirley, "How was your trip to Hong Kong?" And she said, "I had a very good trip." And my little nephew, who's, like, five years old says, "Oh, are you China?" And she goes, "I'm Chinese," you know. And he says, "Well, I'm Japan." And I go, I go, "You're Japanese, but you're--you're an American, but your ancestors were Japanese." And he sits there, and he thinks real hard. He says, "Can I have an-brothers, too?" (laughs) We were all just roaring, because he just can't get the concept, right? He, you know, because he, uh, but he's trying to understand. I remember that, you know, he's watching this...I don't know what kind of cartoon it is. It's, um, about a Siamese cat.

Mary:Oh, I know what that is.

June:You know what it is? Well, he happened to come on Memorial Day, and we have a service at the cemetery for all the deceased people, and so, uh they came along as my father and mother are at that cemetery, so they happened to be here, so they came. And he saw Reverend Uno (sp?) Have you met Reverend Uno?

Lisa:No.

June:Okay. Well, he's wearing his Buddhist, you know. And he has a receding hairline, and his hair was kind of straight behind his ears and goes back like this. And Ryan goes up to him like this and goes (bows) starts bowing. And we're sitting there thinking "...where did he get this?" From television. From the cartoons, because, you know, but the guy's wearing a long thing, and he has a queue down his back, but he didn't see that. He just saw this, and we're thinking, "Oh, my gosh! This child!" And this was when he was much younger. And then we have our hands together. We're saying (Japanese

phrase), and he is looking at everybody, and he's sitting there, and he has his hands together, and he's saying something totally different, but loud enough so everyone can hear. (laughs) So, even at that age, they're trying to learn their identity. Right.

Mary:You had said earlier, you used an interesting, you did, say in an interesting way, that at one time you had to throw away your Japanese-ness in order to be American.

June:Right.

Mary:Is that true today still, or is it an individual thing, or what do you think?

June:I think a lot of people do that. I think still a lot of people do that, but you have to understand who you are, and there are other cultures that hold on to these... It's a, it's really interesting, because the show that we're doing, okay, I had my boss come to this show. I work two days a week at a part-time job, and in the show they read this letter, "My Dear America." It was actually written by a teenager, uh, that was at Minidoka. No, not Minidoka...well, one of the camps. Manzanar. Manzanar. It was in their yearbook. And she writes this "My Dear America"... "you've forgotten us, and it's been so many long years, and I hope that I will be seeing you again." It's a very sad but beautiful letter, and we use it in our show. (23:19) And then, in that letter, it says something about the Astei(?) lady. Uh, what was [sic] her best memories of camp? And her best memories were the birth [sic] of her children. And then, what were your worst memories of camp? And she says "everything else." And then, my boss, after she saw the show, she felt that we were...she didn't really say this to me, but she kind of said to me that "Why do you dwell on this?" And, um, and she says, "I really didn't care for what that lady said." But, see, but she doesn't know how we felt, because no one knows how we felt, because they haven't experienced being ostracized, being taken away like that. I went to, uh, the Gila reunion, because my husband went to Gila, Arizona, and we brought his father with us, and he was, like, ninety-something years old, the oldest person to attend the reunion. We thought this would be really neat for him. It wasn't. He had no one to have a reunion with. We never thought about that. And everybody wanted to interview him, and he started crying, and we were just, like, "Oh, my gosh!" you know. But, uh, but we thought...I don't know what we thought. We thought that he could revisit the site, because there's [sic] enough landmarks there, so my husband can find his barrack, he could find, you know, where the mess hall was, he could remember someone's Japanese garden that was still

partially there... And, um...but one of the Indian governors or something of that tribe was there, and when she gave her speech do you know what she said to us? She says, "Welcome to your homeland." We were just like "Ugh!" But that's what--she was welcoming us--welcoming all of them back to the campsite. Yeah. But it was very moving. Yeah. So it was a good experience.

Lisa:If you could give advice to young kids--Japanese-Americans--today about dealing with issues of identity and assimilation and acculturation, um, difference, what do you think you would want to tell them?

June:I think that you have to really learn to just accept yourself, and accept all parts of yourself. And if you have fear that no one's going to like you because you're too Japanese, or...well, then, so be it. You have to like yourself. I think that, uh, to me, and, like, when friends always ask me--young friends always ask me--"What do you think the most important thing is for a child?" And I said, "The most important thing for a child is self-esteem, feeling good about themselves." And then I think that, this identity thing, you won't have a problem with it, if you feel good about yourself, you know. So, I've always felt that when we got our son at three, someone did a really good job, because he feels good about himself. He doesn't feel, um, ashamed that he was adopted. He doesn't feel, um... He doesn't have any desire to go look for his parents. I'm kind of curious, but he's not. He has an older brother in Japan. He has no desire to look that person up. But he has really good self-esteem. And so, I think that's really important. But I think that if you start to deny a part of you, then I don't think that you can be totally happy with yourself. So, I don't know.

Lisa:There's a lot of interviews that we're doing are around the Japanese Language School in Tacoma, so, just kind of reflecting on the things that you talked about today, you mentioned earlier that divisions between--or distinctions, maybe--between the Methodists and the Buddhists didn't seem very important. This was after the war. And you said that the community in Tacoma was small, and you think that had to do with it. And something else that we have been asking about, trying to understand, is whether or not there was a role that the language school played, because Tacoma's language school was not started by the Methodists or the Buddhists or the Baptists, but it was a non-sectarian institution. So it did bring many different people together.

June:Right, right.

Lisa:So, I don't know if you remember hearing anything about the legacy at all about this school, if that ever came out, if people talked about it at all, you know, your parents' generation...?

June:I, you know, I think that they just, when we got back they didn't want to do things that were too Japanese, and so they did not speak about it, either.

Lisa:Makes sense.

June:Yeah, right.

Lisa:Well, a lot of language schools were targets.

June:Yeah. And my grandfather was also taken away from the home. Even if we all gathered together to go to camp together, he was taken. They didn't know where. Because he was one of the leaders in the community, so we didn't know where he was.

Mary:That was early.

June:That was early on, yeah. So, but because he could speak English, he convinced them that he was, you know, that he should be allowed to go back to his family, so he did not have to go anywhere. Although when I look in this yearbook, I can't find him in here, so... And my aunt's not there, too. So, there was a volunteering program where you could go outside of camp to work, and so I think that that's what they did. But I don't know about my grandfather, because I -- no one to ask anymore. Yeah, so... So, um, I think I remember that they did start a language school later on, but it passed, you know, by the time that I was not there anymore, and they probably did it at the Buddhist Church, I would think. I think I remember maybe going a little bit, because I knew the ah, eh, oo, eh, oh type things, you know. And so, I had to do it somewhere, because that's not something that I'm going to learn on my own. So, uh, but I think that it was too late for me. By the time my younger sister--two years below

me--uh, was in high school, it got a little bit better for her. She started doing a little bit more, uh, with people at school. By the time my youngest sister went through, then I think that it was even a little bit better. But when I, uh, I mean our community, both in Seattle and Tacoma, provided some wonderful things for us, you know. In Seattle they had the Skyliners. Have you ever heard of them? This was a big, uh, band.

Lisa:Oh, yeah.

June:Yeah, there was a teacher from Garfield High School that, uh, came and started this band, and we--so all of our dances, when we had dances, they all had the big bands there.

Mary:Oh, wow!

June:And so, we were jitterbugging and...

Lisa:Would you go to Seattle often, then?

June:Uh, when I, um...no. No, Seattle was a big trip for us because in those days they only had Highway 99, I think.

Lisa:Is that right?

June:Right. And so, my father didn't have a car until I was in high school, I think. And, uh, and then we started going a little bit more, but, uh, that was a big trip, going to Seattle in those days because it was further away.

Mary:Tell me again what year did you graduate from Stadium.

June:1958

Mary:1958. And so, your sister, then, 1960 and 1962...

June:Right. Right.

Mary:And even in that short time--

June:Even in that short time.

Mary:Was it the Civil Rights Movement that was starting up that was--

June:I think, I don't--I don't know what it was. I, I, but I know that, uh... Well, maybe it's because the people that my mom worked for, their kids were about their age...

Mary:Uh-huh...

June:...And so, they probably met when they were in, um, uh...high school, maybe, you know.

Mary:So they had more of a...

June:Yeah, right.

Mary:...entry point or something.

June:Right, right. But they were--both of my younger sisters were--much quieter than I am. I was always into everything, you know, so... I always want to do everything, not particularly good at anything (laughs) but...

Lisa:Lots of interests.

June:Lot--wanted to try everything, yeah.

Lisa:Did -- I'm just thinking about the Alien land Law.

June:Okay.

Lisa:Were there any issues when your uncles came back and they went back to the farm areas?

June:Well, you know, they used to farm in the area where, um, all the lakes were. Surprise Lake, and, I don't know. There's lots of lakes over there. And, um, had they been--but they were not allowed to buy that land. Right...so... Otherwise they would have had some really prime property that they had worked in.

Lisa:So they actually went back to different areas.

June:Yeah, so they went back to, uh, they came back to Fife, I think, after the war, 'cause I remember that, um, that where they were farming was on both sides of the railroad tracks. My uncle, my grandfath--I mean, they were pumping water. There was no water that came out of a faucet on that side. I think we had water on our side, but we still had the outhouses. I hated those. (laughs) And even our homes, you know, we lived in Tacoma. It was woodburning.

Mary:Oh, is that right?

June:Yeah, and so the first house, you know, the, uh, the first house that we rented from the Wong family. Wing? Maybe it was Wing family. But anyways, uh, the person, they would come with a truck and they would dump the wood down this little shaft, and it would come into the... And it was our job to pile the wood up. So... And it was just like lots and lots of wood. I think that the second house that we had, I think it must have been oil-burning. I don't remember doing it at that house where we finally ended up living.

Lisa:So that was in the central area of Tacoma?

June:That's at--that's the 1510 Fawcett. We lived on Fawcett both times, yeah. And I have a feeling that Mrs. Rhys' vacation bible school was on Fawcett Avenue, too. I, I...

Lisa:Oh, where you started.

June:Yeah, I mean, around that area, because we're just a few blocks down from the church.

Mary:Then when did your family sell that house?

June:Uh, when my mother, um, moved to California, when my parents moved to California. And you know who bought it? Mrs. Fujimoto.

Mary:Oh, is that right?

Lisa:Oh, really?

Mary:Because I wonder if it's still standing.

June:No, the house is not standing anymore. Because I went back there, and um, let's see, I could see the stairway...

Mary:Uh-huh.

June:But it was a neat, neat house. It was a kind of like--I remember we had mahogany railings, so we used to always ride the railing down the stairs, you know. And, uh, very Victorian-looking, really, 'cause a narrow hallway, and a living room in the front, and then a middle room, and in the back was the kitchen, uh, eating area. And then we had the dining room in

the middle. That's where we did everything. Always sat down togeth... Our family always sat down together for dinner. And we would talk and talk and laugh and argue and whatever. And so...and I'm finding that my husband didn't live like this, because he came from a Japanese-speaking family, so they never sat down to dinner together. And so, when--by the time our son left, I would serve the food, and my husband would eat, and by the time I sat down he was gone. So, I had to finally say, "You know, uh, this is not working out for me." (laughs) So, I would set the table and I wouldn't give him his silverware until I sat down. (all laugh) Because I'm used to discussing the day.

Lisa:Yeah.

June:Or having one time where everyone talks, and he's not. He eats so fast. I thought, "Oh, my god. How could you enjoy your food?" We would--we're such slow eaters, and I think you become that way when you have conversation at dinner.

Lisa:The social event.

June:Right. Because in the morning everybody's, you know, like my father went to work early, and then people had different times to go to school, and then at lunch time you're at school, and so dinner was one time that we always got together as a family. So, I kind of insisted that's the way ours was going to be, too.

Lisa:Do you usually go to the main door, or would you always go in and out downstairs?

June:I think we always went in and out downstairs. But for us, we always went through the window, you know, for the kids. But, uh... and my mother, she cooked on a hotplate on the floor, because there was no kitchen there. And, um... Because I remember we had to watch her cooking one time. We were worried about it, because it was raining, and I think that she didn't want to take us to the market, because the market was on...Market Street? There were some markets down there. Have you been to the Buddhist Church in Tacoma?

Lisa:Not inside.

June:You should go inside. My brother-in-law is the one that did the stained glass windows.

Mary:Oh, is that right?

Lisa:Really?

June:Yeah.

Lisa:Well, there's going to be, in October, I think, a 90th anniversary...

June:Oh, is there?

Lisa:On October 5th. Dr. Munekata is arranging--

June:For people to go down there. Ah, I have a wedding. My nephew is going to get married in September. Yeah, so I don't think we can do both.

Lisa:(soft muttering)

June:And my mother and father were married at the Buddhist Church, and we were also married there.

Lisa:Is that right?

June:Yes.

Lisa:In Tacoma?

June:In Tacoma.

Lisa:When you were staying in the school building, do you remember that you said there was a rocking horse upstairs?

June:Right.

Lisa:Um...

June:They had a lot of stuff stored up there.

Lisa:Okay.

June:And I don't know who it belonged to. But we were not supposed to be up there. Yeah.

Lisa:A number of families have said that they stored things there...

June:Oh, okay.

Lisa:...during the war.

June:There were lots and lots of different things up there when we came back, and that's probably why we weren't supposed to be up there, because it didn't belong to even the Japanese School.

Mary:That's why you wanted to be up there.

June:Yeah, because it was, uh, curious. Curiosity.

Lisa:I don't know if there's anything else that we haven't covered in the questions and about Tacoma and your family's history...

June:Let's see. All of us graduated from Stadium High School, everybody in my family. We went to all the schools there. Everyone went to the same schools: Central, McCarver, and then Stadium. And then brother to the University of Washington. I went to Central [Washington College], as well as my sister, and then my youngest sister to the University of Washington.

Mary:So your sister went to Central with you?

June:Uh, she went two years later, yeah. Uh-huh, yeah. We were at the same college. And then her girls ended up going there, too. Yeah, so...

Mary:And your brother was living in New York. What about your sisters?

June:Okay. My, uh, one sister still lives in Kent. Her husband was a teacher at, uh, let's see...not Garfield...Franklin. Uh-huh, but he's long since retired. And her husband was an all-star football player, barely five feet tall.

Lisa:Really?

June:For Garfield High School. Right. 'Cause Garfield produced a lot of really wonderful people. They had, uh, they called it the "Golden Years" when my brother-in-law was there. They had the Skyliner Band, they had, uh, I think Quincy Jones. Didn't he come from there?

Lisa:Oh, right.

June:And also there was a few others.

Lisa:Jimi Hendrix

June:Yeah, but a lot of people came from Garfield. And, um...their high school days were quite different, you know, and he's older than I am, and yet because they had so many Japanese at that school... They held all the class offices, see, compared to the kind of...where you have so few of us, it's, it was quite different. Mm-hmm. But because we did things with the Seattle Buddhist Church--and they used to have the big basketball tournaments, all the dances and things--we had a great life.

Mary:A woman we interviewed yesterday said she liked the Buddhist boys the best. (all laugh)

June:Isn't that funny?

Lisa:She's in her eighties, and she remembered even though she went to the Methodist Church that she liked going to the Buddhist activities the best.

June:And they had lots of activities for them. They had people who really cared about, especially in Seattle--

...But I went home, and I was really upset, my mother called Reverend Pratt, Reverend Pratt called the bus company, and an apology was given. Yeah. And another time, um, when my sister was taking a civics class, the teacher said that Buddhists were heathens, you know. And so, my sister was really upset, and I guess because everybody laughed because she was Buddhist and she's a heathen. And so, then, Reverend Pratt--I guess my mother talked to Reverend Pratt, and she went to the school board, and she set them straight, and set the teacher straight as well. And, you know. So, she did a lot for us, and I think that at first, um, when they came back, I think I heard that they wanted them to sit at the back of the movie theaters, and she went there and said absolutely not. So she was the main person in my life, really, as far as Buddhist education. Uh, and she used to have craft activities for the girls, because we were all girls there, you know, and she would take us to all the different Buddhist conventions...

Mary:Wow.

June:...Yeah, uh-huh. And, uh, she used to tell us these flannel board stories of the life of the Buddha so you would never forget them. So, a very important part of our lives, yeah. So we were lucky to have an English-speaking minister in those days, yeah.

Mary:That must have been very unusual.

June:Yeah, it was. It was very unusual, because the only other one other than that first non-Japanese-speaking person that I heard was Reverend Takimoto. Arthur Takimoto. Have you ever heard of him? Yeah. I think [he] recently retired, but he still--he lives in Southern California still, but very good. Yeah, so... And I, and we did have a, um, friends in both the Methodist and the Buddhist Church. We never felt anything different about each other. And they played basketball with us as well.

Lisa:Oh, the...the...

June:Yeah, in the, uh, on our teams. We all played together. Even if it was sponsored by the Buddhist Church, they were welcome as well. So... But when you move away, you don't keep in touch anymore, so... 'Cause like I said, Joe Kosai's ex-wife was one of my very best friends. I met her in Fife when I was there for a very short time. I think that that's why, uh, relocation must have been hard for my mom and my aunt, because they're from a farming community, and farming communities care a lot for one another, I think, and they look past your ethnicity, I think, because everyone's having the same hardships. So, uh, I think there were many acts of kindness from those people when they left to go to camp. Yeah. I recall hearing something. You know, it would be different from living in the city.

Lisa:Well, thank you very much.

June:You're welcome.

Lisa:We really appreciate you coming and spending time today, talking with us, and also having all the dates and everything was very helpful.

June:Yeah, I had to really look those up.